What Is The Death Rate In Camps?
Information is admittedly obscured
The Times of London published an IDP death rate of 1,400 per week, or about 200 a day. This was sourced to ‘senior international aid sources’. Which is nonsense journalism, like their 20,000 body count based on a few photos from a helicopter. Not that the government is forthcoming enough, but people will actually answer questions if you’re not a dick about it. I checked with actual sources and that number is completely made-up. The WHO and NGOs have already been briefed with a different set of numbers from the Ministry Of Health, coming from doctors in the field. For any journalist with some basic contacts, this information is not hard to find. The real number of deaths is something like 5-6 per day.
The highest I saw (since May) was 17. So, not 200. Perhaps these numbers are lies, I dunno, but they’re documented and it still holds up better than conjecture from an anonymous source. These are numbers from the Ministry Of Health, presented to the WHO and NGOs. I can’t release the source document cause I just saw it on a computer but I’m told they’re issuing a press release soon. Again, these numbers could be wrong, but they’re at least somehow connected to reality rather than conjecture.
The death rate is still higher than Sri Lanka as a whole and the conditions still suck. I still firmly believe that people who have family should be allowed to leave and that others should be given a choice. However, making up very serious numbers doesn’t help anyone. It riles up some hardline diaspora elements, but it’s fundamentally a political missive, not a journalistic one.
Too many people are dying in the camps, but it’s certainly not 200 a day. What I hear and have seen is more like 5-6. I learned this from walking down the street to ask the Ministry of Health. I’ve also called people in Vavuniya and they report nothing near 200. I’m no journalist, but this basic verification of facts seems important. I say this not to trivialize the issue or say that there is not an issue. There is. I say it to simply call for basic documentation and accuracy, or at least respectable lies. Times Of London. Put down the placard. Pick up the phone.
Er, is your figure of 5-6 a bit like the figure of 70,000 that was trotted out by the government a few months ago as the total number of civilians in the safe zones? Trying to counter the Times number by citing government figures is just stupid. It really is, unless you’re trying to defend the government at any cost, even that of looking stupid. If that’s what you are doing, maybe you are not that stupoid after all. Just a stooge. Point being the Times number may be wrong, but we will never know, and we will never know because the government does not let anyone else find out. You know this. Don’t blame the Times. Having an accurate statistic as to the number of people dying daily is not that difficult at all. It’s as simple as 1,2,3. It’s the government and the military that is preventing people from finding out. Why? Surely you know the answer to that question by now. Or do you pretend that those questions don’t exist.
I’ve admitted that these numbers could be wrong, but they’re at least sourced somewhere and have some documentation behind them. The 1400 is sourced anonymously and has no documentation behind it.
a)the Times number, unbless it is just a figment of the imagination of the writer, cannot be linked publicly to a source. the source will either get killed, arrested, or deported along with the rest of th staff of the organisation for which the source works. where the physical afety of the source is at risk, critiquing the article forbeing unsources is stupid.
b)there is no documentation on the deaths caused in the camps besides the documentation the government cooks up, because, yes, the government does not permit anyone to have the kind of access that makes that kind of documentation possible.
thw point is, this piece of yours is a fundamentally political missive by you, just to defend the government. shame on you.
You cannot source serious numbers to anonymous international aid workers. You can get it on background from multiple sources in the field and still be credible, or get your hands on some leaked documentation. They don’t.
I’m in almost daily contact with doctors in Vavuniya, Puvarasakulam, Cheddikulam and Menik Farm and none of them mention anything approaching this death rate. We’re supplying meds directly to the doctors and they would notice if they were losing 200 patients a day.
Any decent journalist can call a few doctors in the camps for background, contract the Ministry for rebuttal, etc. Otherwise it’s just an opinion from international aid workers and shouldn’t be published as fact.
I’m in contact with doctors in the camps and the hospitals too, and almost all of them say they don’t have a clue as to what’s going on, in relation to death rates etc. They say that access to the camps and to the hospitals(for non govt docs) is completely controlled by the government. They also say they don’t want to speak out about anything they see, because they don’t want to get killed. You’ve been identified as a government lackey now. Even I’d advise any doctor I know not to say anything they know about anything to you. Munch on that for a while.
I’m pretty sure every doctor working in the hospitals or camps has to go through government health services. Sri Lankan citizen doctors can volunteer, through the MinHealth as far as I know. Access to any government hospital is generally controlled by the government, though the civil side more than the political. Anybody doing any serious work in and around the camps (or in Sri Lanka really) works with the government.
I think I’m fairly critical of the government on various fronts and I try to be supportive where they deserve support. If I hear rumors I try to follow them up as best I can and I can’t find any evidence for this 1,400. Aside from your additional rumors, I still haven’t found any corroboration.
Nice try. You’re still a government stooge and you sure sound like one. Even Dayan J comes across as critical of the government from time to time. Don’t think anyone who knows what you’re doing, and what are your views are is going to comfortable sharing what they know with you, which is why I’m suggesting that it’s unlikely you’re going to hear anything but the sort of news you want to hear from doctors who might know something.
Again, the personal attacks are kinda pointless. Yes, I’m a government stooge, writing for the Sunday Leader, calling for Mahinda to release the war dead, start releasing IDPs, etc. What I do is try to understand and communicate with both sides.
There isn’t that much political talk up there. I’m not even there to advocate my views, more trying to deliver meds and food and whatever I can. People just tell me what they’re doing as they go about their work, what meds they need, etc. If there were 200 people a day dying I’m pretty sure we’d hear. But I don’t know, I just report what I can reasonably document.
I have a few contacts among the IDPs and the army as well. None of them know me as a blogger or a writer at all. Just Indrajit, or Indi.
Personal attack? I stuck to the subject matter of the argument, to which you introduced your own credibility and ability to know roughly how many were dying per week. You said – it was not 1400 a week because the government said so. I responded that it was stupid to use govt stats to counter anything. You replied that if there were 1400 a week, you would know, because you know doctors who would know who would tell you. I responded again that you probably wouldn’t know, because the doctors wouldn’t tell you, because the ones who wanted to talk probably wouldn’t trust you. You got hurt. I’m sorry, I don’t understand. Where’s the ad hominem?
ad hominem = “you government stooge.”
the character of the quasi-witness should not be questioned in an argument premised on both sides granting the premise of the other’s argument:
i.e.
–it is probable that the doctor’s were mistaken in their figures then and now
–it is probable that the greatest tragedy unfolding is the dismal prospect that we will not know the true figure in time for new internal organs to be cultured by our great-great-grandchildren.
er, i hate playing teacher/lecturer/guru and having to sound condescending and all that, but an ad hominem becomes a fallacy only when the attack of the person is not logically connected to the facts/principles in dispute. that’s pretty basic. sorry you didn’t know that.
same goes for not questioning the character of the quasi witness. When the quasi witness is set up as a proof for demonstrating the veracity of the facts claimed, there’s nothing wrong with questioning that credibility. When the government says there is no sexual abuse in the camps, we don’t buy their account of things wholesale, do we?
aa,
you are an unaccountable and irascible contrarian. there, i struck at the foundation of your claims of truth-value. it’s not ad hominem at all, you disengenuous prat.
your ‘sources’ are cowards. if the times story is true, then they will be remembered as the selfish fools who failed to manifest a backbone when ‘the facts’ had not yet made it into cannon.
Indi is probably wrong about “5-6.” The times is probably wrong about 200 a day. That neither of you see the real tragedy, not knowing the real figure, is most disconcerting of all.
I agree that not knowing is the worst. Especially for the families. We really don’t know, and can’t know
Machan, i don’t know. but has anyone ever talked to you about working on your syntax. i’m not a literary critic or anything. i’m sorry if it’s an esoteric, cultivated sort of style, but english please?
my ‘sources’? Oh, you mean the doctors/aid workers who know certain things but don’t talk about them openly. Yes, i do suppose they are cowards. That’s a high bar, but that’s cool.
“neither of you see the real tragedy” – come come now. get off your high horse, stop this self-righteous speechifying and show me how disputing a government number is mutually inconsistent with ”seeing the real tragedy”. Again, if you want to claim superior perception, I’m cool with that, just don’t think I can accept it.
Just because the govt documents a number they want people to believe, it becomes legitimate? As Aadhavan says we will never know the truth as the govt doesn’t want anyone to know the truth at any cost.
The government hasn’t officially documented this number. It’s not released or politically vetted or anything. I went and asked the doctors in charge and checked with the doctors in the field. This is what a serious journalist should consider doing.
An unnamed senior International aid worker, who wishes to remain anonymous has indicated that the government is running a secret camp in the north of the country. This camp run exclusively by the extended Rajapassa klan have been working on resurrecting thousands of dead Tamil civilians, brain washing them, and putting them to work on commercial ganja cultivation. Ganja is expected to overtake Teas as Sri Lanka’s major export commodity, and the Rajapasa clan is expected to make big bikkies (or was it brownies) from this venture.
[...] the mention of a large number of deaths in Sri Lankan IDP camps by some International media and comments: “making up very serious numbers doesn’t help anyone. It riles up some hard line diaspora [...]
Indi – Understood that your criticism is largely aimed at the propagation of unverified numbers that appear alarmist and inflationary, and potentially intended to be antagonistic towards the government. However, I do have to agree with the substance of what Aadhavan is saying (if not his facetious manner). I do not believe anyone based within the country can go on record and say anything that could contradict the government figures and be assured of safety/continued employment/a visa. So even though you have laudably taken the time to call up doctors/speak to the Ministry of Health etc, all it serves to do is publicise figures that the government want to be absorbed by the general public. What the Times should have done is to have called up the government sources as you suggested and then contrasted these with the un-official, off the record figures that they have obtained (or fabricated, depending on your persuasion).
In any case, the fact remains that unless the government allow independent monitoring they don’t have a leg to stand on and therefore deserve every bit of sensationalism that is thrown at them – be it fantastical or possibly some reflection of the truth. Unless unfettered access is allowed, we can only assume that the government is lying and that these fantastical speculations may in fact be true. If they have nothing to hide, why not be open? It is a very simple question that has yet to be given a satisfactory answer. It is up to the government to dispel the “myth” convincingly, not vice-versa as they are the ones suppressing access to the truth.
Indi great job in speaking to people on the ground and reporting here. Aadhavan while you make some sense, you quickly resort to the baseless accusation of calling Indi a “government stooge and lackey”. What IS the basis for your accusation? Is he in the government payroll? Does he derive any other benefit from govt? You should explain yourself or an apology would be in order. If you mean his argument in some way supports some claims of the government, that just makes him a critical writer writing on both sides of the argument, which at this moment happens to not be favorable of Times online.
Times online hasn’t made any effort to show it has credible sources and in a major story such as this one it is absolutely essential they do so or shut up and sit it out. My few contacts tell me those figures are not correct and they are well connected in the NGOs they work for. There are many ways to let the reader know a reporter has credible sources without naming people – an experienced journalist would know how.
Nevertheless, Aadhavan I get where you are coming from. Northern Tamils are a community that have gone through horrendous trauma for decades and especially in the last two years. If you speak to some and they don’t make much sense right now, I get that. I wouldn’t make much sense if I saw a hundred people die around me on one day.
and if i supported, tacitly supported, or failed to protest the senseless killing of tens of thousands and internment of hundreds of thousands in concentration camps, i would lose my moral compass too, and not make sense. I get that. I get why a lot of Sinhalese aren’t making sense anymore.
as opposed to your tacit support and failure to protest senseless killing of thousands by the LTTE? you applauded and sometimes justified their actions on this blog. when you didn’t do that, you shrugged your shoulders and said they didn’t listen to you anyway.
i wonder if you are really anything more substantive than the amoral hatemonger you play on this blog. a classy bit of ethnocentric hate to round off your comment by the way. nice.
nice choice of pseudonym ;-) Actually, if you followed my contributions in these blogs carefully, you would have noted that I thought that the level of brutality displayed by the armed forces and the LTTE were kind of equivalent. Didn’t protest? I denounced them as brutal murderers and violent thugs. And yes, they didn’t listen to legitimate Tamil voices. As for the suggestion that I applauded their actions and justified them, what can I say, that racist attitude is what has resulted in 300,000 Tamils being locked up in concentration camps. We Tamils get used to that shit after a while.
show me one link, just one solitary link to where I have applauded any illegitimate act of violence by the LTTE(i.e- any act of violence in contravention of HR law and IHL) If you can’t, you stand exposed as a liar and racist. Don’t worry. You’ve got plenty of company.
http://ravana.wordpress.com/2006/06/15/give-the-sinhalese-a-fcking-break/#comment-46
typical. you define the goalposts carefuly and you still cant hide. where is my prize? you are already a liar and racist. are you a idiot too?
btw did the LTTE commit legitimate acts of violence?
who died and made you sole representatives for “we tamils” aadhavan? no dont bother answering, we saw what was left of his face on tv a few months ago.
if your brotherhood of tamils had the balls to stop the ltte from hijacking your “aspirations”, you wouldnt have to deal with this shit now. easier to blame the sinhalese than your own spinelessness i guess
er, i think i said ‘where have i applauded acts of violence by the ltte that violated hr and ihl’? can you not read? you can be pissed off with me for being careful with my choice of words but just because you can’t find me applauding the ‘senseless killing thousands’, doesn’t make a certain judiciousness with words a bad thing. were there acts of violence by the ltte that did not violate hr and ihl? absolutely. just as there were some acts of violence by the armed forces that didnt. i would refer you to the distinction between jus ad bello and jus in bellum if you were bestowed with the gift of comprehension, but alas…
“if your brotherhood of tamils had the balls to stop the ltte from hijacking your “aspirations”, you wouldnt have to deal with this shit now. easier to blame the sinhalese than your own spinelessness i guess”
This applies to a lot of Tamils who seem to be whining these days. Hid like chickens when the LTTE was around, never condemning them or taking steps to nullify the LTTE, now out it force crying and bellyaching. Tamils need to pull themselves and their community together before screaming at the Sinhalese, the Muslims, India, Brahmins, Hindians, China, Pakistan and the whole world.
bring on the racism brother. bring it on.
Yeah, everyone except you is a racist. Bring on that (pathetic) Tamil argument brother, bring it on.
for your sake, I hope there are people as passionately interested in your cause who can use fewer words and make more sense aadhavan. being pissed with you would imply i give a shit about your whining. the newsflash for you is, i dont
the link you wanted has been shown. you havent even bothered refuting what can be seen by anyone else. racists like you are the new blight on the tamils you proudly claim to speak for.
the fancy latin and constitutional arguments are just to fool people, just like the ltte always insisted they were really the good guys.
Tony Senewiratne of the Habitat for Humanity said at a National Peace Council meeting day before yesterday that the deaths are 4 times higher than the SPHERE standards. That is 60 a week and around 250 a month. For the so called weeding out the tigers process this is the cost that the tamils are paying. This should be atrocious to anyone. Its like the war is still on – 60 deaths a week???
Have worked with Habitat and I don’t know where Tony gets his numbers from. He’s been there twice as far as I know and they don’t actually have much access of their own. Habitat also doesn’t work with medical relief or hospitals per se, so he’d have to name some other source for those numbers, which differ greatly from those released by the Ministry of Health and what I’ve heard from doctors and seen inside the camps.
They could be right, but just cause the head of a housing organization says them doesn’t make it so.
hahaha…superb. still sticking to health ministry stats.
What motive would Tony Senewiratne or Habitat for Humanity have to exaggerate?
One would assume that, in the current climate, any NGOs actually working in Sri Lanka would not want to antagonize the government with false claims?
Additionally, I’m sure you can appreciate that when one receives sensitive information, they would have to protect their sources. If he named names of doctors working in camps as his sources, what do you think would happen to those indivuals?
I understand, but it’s also impossible to verify such information, thus of dubious value
In your main post Indi you say:
“Too many people are dying in the camps, but it’s certainly not 200 a day. What I hear and have seen is more like 5-6″
5-6 a day which will be roughly 40 deaths a week by your own admission which is almost 3 times the SPHERE standards. That’s about 160 a month.
As for Tony this was what he heard from a meeting of NGOs/INGOs on the subject. Mr Samarajiva wants to claim more expertise on the matter with his ACT visits i suppose. My speaking to Vavuniya based local workers and relatives of IDP inmates is that the figure is higher than 60 a week. All statistics except those from the Hon Nimal Sripala de Silva would be unreliable for Mr (who the Govt should soon make the Hon) Samarajiva. The Govt indeed can greatly benefit from Mr Samarajiva’s relentless campaign for them.
I understand that unsubstiantiated evidence is of dubious value, but considering that there isn’t a free press in sri lanka, nor a system to protect people who speak out, unsubstatiated reports have become somewhat of a norm in sri lanka. What largely matters instead is the reputation of the messenger. UTHR-Jaffna reports and DBS Jeyaraj are two example i think of that used anonymous sources but have some credibility.
You quoted the real figure being 5-6 a day because the Ministy of Health stated it is 5-6 a day. Have they substianted to you as to how they have got that figure?
personally, i think the government has little credibility and they have an incentive to keep the death figures low. Has the government made lists of who is inside the camps yet? if this happened, it would be easier to know how many people die, and would give, at least my mind, the ministry of health more credibility.
Aachcharya:
Sensationalist bullshit. The emergency CMR is 1-2 per 10000 people per day. Even you should be able to do basic arithmetic, someone can help if you have difficulty using a calculator.
You seem envious of the soon to be Hon Mr Samarajiva. If you don’t want to do what he’s doing, I hear the LTTE leadership has plenty of vacancies. You will even get a fake military rank with your new post.