Representing Tamils
Ancient Tamil script. Photo by Ravages
The LTTE’s claim to be ‘sole representatives’ of the Tamil People has always confused me. I’ve known quite a few Tamils who have no connection to the LTTE or Sri Lanka at all. I also know a lot of Tamils who live in Colombo and vote and pay taxes here. However, those people are as diverse and divided as anybody else I know, and I’m curious as to how they came to have a sole representative. So, I checked the numbers, and there’s no possible way the LTTE can be the sole rep of any demographic slice. The LTTE has direct control of about 200,000 out of the 3.6 million Tamils in Sri Lanka. They have indirect control of 1.36 million. That is at best half, and a fraction of the 74 million Tamils in the world.
They are also fractured in the East and don’t allow a free vote in the North, so I don’t see how they’re really representative. They may wave the bloody flag of Tamil suffering and be the only ones live enough to sit at a negotiation table, but that doesn’t make them a sole representative. It doesn’t make Tamil suffering any less real, it just means that the LTTE doesn’t really represent them in any real way. And I’m not even talking ideology, I’m talking numbers. Their violence exaggerates their moral strength.
Tamil People
The first claim, that the LTTE represents the Tamil people, is obviously false. There are over 74 million Tamil people worthwhile in various nations. “The oldest Tamil communities are those of southern India and northeastern Sri Lanka. There are also a number of Tamil emigrant communities scattered around the world, especially in central Sri Lanka, Malaysia, South Africa and Singapore, with more recent emigrants found in Australia, Canada, the United States, and Europe (Wikipedia).”
The highest concentration of Tamils is in India (Tamil Nadu) and I know Tamils from Singapore, Malaysia etc who don’t identify with Sri Lanka or the Wanni at all. They’re definitely Tamil, but the “Tamil people” are united more by language and culture than any particular land. If they do have a land it’s probably India. That is why I don’t think it’s accurate to say the LTTE represents the ‘Tamil People’. Most Tamils have nothing to do with this island, and they vote for their own leadership in their respective countries.
To repeat myself, the LTTE is not the sole representative of the 74 million Tamil people by an stretch of the imagination.
Sri Lankan Tamils
So, let’s refine the term ‘Tamil People’ to mean ‘Sri Lankan Tamils’. In Sri Lanka as a whole there are an estimated 3.6 million Tamil people, loosely defined as Tamil speaking. According to the 2001 Census, there are about 750,000 Sri Lankan Tamils and 850,000 Indian Tamils in government controlled areas (Excluding Jaffna, Mannar, Vavuniya, Mullativu, Kilinochchi, and Batticaloa). So, let’s say 1.6 million total. Sri Lanka has grown about 22% since then. Of course, the Tamil population has grown at a lower rate. Let’s say there are 1.8 million Tamils in Sri Lanka proper, a growth of less than 20% from the last census. I don’t know where they got the 3.6 million figure, but it is for 2005.
Anyways, the point is that there are at most 1.8 million Tamils in the North and East. There are 1.8 million Tamils in the rest of the country, like Colombo and Nuwara Eliya. So it’s pretty much half and half. The Tamils in Sri Lanka pay taxes and vote and hold office in Sri Lanka. I don’t know if they sympathize with the LTTE, but they certainly have more interactions with GoSL and the LTTE is by no means their ‘sole representative’. That means that the LTTE represents – at the most – half of the Sri Lankan Tamils. I mean, Nuwara Eliya isn’t trying to secede.
Which is to say, the LTTE is certainly not the representative of all Sri Lankan Tamils, because half of them live in the democratic part of Sri Lanka, pay taxes, vote here, etc. Note that I’m not saying that there aren’t LTTE sympathizers, I’m just saying that the LTTE is not the sole representative. In fact, those people could’ve voted with their feet and gone abroad or to the NorthEast, and they haven’t. Whatever their freedom fighter merits, the LTTE can’t really claim to represent Sri Lankan Tamils.
North East Tamils
This is the land the LTTE claims as Tamil Eelam. Unfortunately, since the NorthEast is so unstable, the government hasn’t been able to conduct a proper census there since 1981. All this data is therefore patchy, but I’ve tried to err in the oppositions favor. According to the 2001 Census data, they estimated that the total SL population is 18.7 million. There were about 17 million people outside the NorthEast. Therefore we can guess that there are 1.7 million people in the NorthEast.
However, these people are not all Tamil. Tamils accounted for 73% of the NorthEast in 1981. Let’s say due to war and whatnot that number is now 80%. That means about 1.36 million Tamils in the NorthEast. However, that’s not the end of the story. According to Sarvi at Point Pedro,
Though LTTE controls about 50% of the total land area of the N&E Province only about 15% of the total population of the N&E Province actually lives in LTTE controlled areas (Point Pedro Working Paper)
So, let’s be generous and say that the all people in those areas are Tamil. That’s still only 200,000 people. Let me repeat that. The LTTE is controls the lives of about 200,000 people. They have an indirect influence on another 1.16 million. Still, that is very very far from being the sole representative of even NorthEast Tamils.
This is not to say that people in Government controlled areas don’t support the LTTE. Again, my only point is that the LTTE can’t claim to be the sole representative of even the NorthEast Tamils.
The East
I won’t go much into this, but the North and the East are very different places. This article on Native Sri Lankan Tamils is a good place to start. Note that this doesn’t include ‘Indian’ Tamils who live primarily in the GOSL hilly country. Anyways, the North and East have different cultures, caste practices, and levels of development. Now they also have competing ‘sole representives’ since the LTTE’s Eastern Commander Karuna broke away from the group.
This was actually not the first sign of tension between North and East. In 2002, Prabhakaran sacked Karikalan as Special Political Commissar for Batticaloa-Amparai (East). The sacking was partly because Norway didn’t meet with the East separately, and Karikalan responded saying,
“[A]ny decisions that are arrived at with the top hierarchy could not be implemented without cooperation from regional leaders. “Solutions to real problems can be achieved by holding discussions with the regional commanders in areas where such problems really exist. Instead of doing so, making attempts to resolve problems by talking to our hierarchy will not help because solutions about the exact field situation, the ongoing problems and how to resolve it won’t be available there. Matters should be resolved through discussing issues in places where they exist. Unity cannot be reached through commandments or insistence,” Karikalan told the newspaper [Virakesari] (Jeyaraj in The Hindu’s Frontline).”
The guy sacking Karikalan was Karuna, and in 2004 he completely broke off from the LTTE. He claimed it was because the LTTE wasn’t paying due attention to Eastern Tamils and the LTTE claimed that Karuna was corrupt. There’s an interesting report from Hindu Frontline and Wikipedia says
In March 2004, Karuna broke away from the mainstream LTTE after he alleged they were ignoring the interests of the eastern Tamil people. The LTTE alleges that the real reason he broke way because the LTTE’s intelligence wing was closing in on him for corruption and violating the LTTE code of conducts. The Tigers reacted by launching attacks against Karuna’s forces, and heavy clashes ensued. The LTTE claimed they fully evicted his fources from the district he controlled.
However, the Karuna Faction, as it has now been dubbed, continues to maintain a stronghold in the southeast of Sri Lanka with a force estimated to number a few hundred. They continue to regularly attack the LTTE, causing heavy casualties.
Regardless, this also calls into doubt the claims to represent the NorthEast in any fashion.
The Sum
I’d like to reiterate that Tamils in Sri Lanka have valid concerns and a separate state may be an option, I don’t know. All I am saying is that, aside from the moral repugnance of a sole representative, the numbers simply don’t hold up. There are 74 million ‘Tamil People’ who the LTTE definitely doesn’t represent. Of the 3.6 million million Tamils in Sri Lanka, only about 200,000 are in LTTE controlled areas. Even if you give them every Tamil in the NorthEast then that’s still only 1.36 million, and that is assuming that all Tamils think the same which, being people, I doubt. Even make huge assumptions in their favor, there’s still no way to look at the numbers that makes the LTTE sole representatives of any slice of the Tamil people, besides the hefty sliver that is Prabhakaran. Again again, this does not mean that the Tamil people don’t have serious concerns about life, limb, property and dignity. They do. I believe that my nation is slowly growing to be less of a collective ass, though it may be too little too late. All I am arguing here is that the LTTE is not the sole representative of anybody. Like Al Qaeda, they claim a broad and vague suffering as their property. However, like Al Qaeda, they are not a representative body by any stretch.
Super post. The representative status is there…but clearly not an exclusive representation. Your argument holds up even if someone dismisses the ‘Tami people’ as opposed to ‘Sri Lankan Tamils’ term as mere nomenclature.
The LTTE undoubtedly represents some Tamils, although the numbers are not certain. However, a little bit of history is worth revisiting.
There were two streams of people who reprented the Tamils, the democratic politicians and the militants. For a very long time (1970-1983) the militants represented only the lunatic fringe – a very tiny minority.
Post 1983, the militants gained ground, at the expense of the democrats, but the militants were a highly fragmented lot. There was TELO, PLOTE, EROS, EPRLF, EPDP and a few others. In the mid 1980′s the LTTE went on a violent campaign attacking most of the smaller militant groups and eliminated their fighting capacity. This is the basis of their claim to be sole representatives of the Tamils.
The rump of the remaining militant groups, along with the LTTE were signatories in 1987 to the peace accord brokered by India. Thereafter some groups remained in the democratic mainstream while others shrivelled and disintegrated. The LTTE broke out of the 1987 accord and resumed fighting in the early 1990′s. The democratic mainstream (like the TULF) has also withered.
This brings us to an interesting question – who represents the Tamils? I know a great majority voted for Ranil W. at the last Presidential election and the UNP has consistently captured a large share of the minority vote (the moors and burghers included).
I think this also reflects the changing nature of the grievances, the democratic mainstream Tamil politicians were (I believe) mostly galvanised by issues of language and Civil Service jobs, both of which are non-issues now.
Militant movement has in turn has grown into a phenomenon of its own. Identifying what feeds it or drives it may hold the key to solution.
Unfortunately teh Sri Lankan government is short on options and more importantly cash. It takes cash to fight a war and the governemnt is teetering on the brink of financial meltdown. What happens after the meltdown – I give it another year at the most to happen, will be a bloody stalemate, such as the many conflicts across the African continent. We best we can hope for is that it eventually burns itself out.
“Even make huge assumptions in their favor, there’s still no way to look at the numbers that makes the LTTE sole representatives of any slice of the Tamil people…”
But the TNA received, even in occupied Jaffna, about 90 percent of the Tamil vote. And they campaigned on the premise that the ltte is the sole representative of the (NorthEastern) Tamils. Therefore, the ltte is justified in claiming that they are the representative of the majority of NorthEastern Tamils (of course, they cannot be the SOLE representative since no one can be the sole representative of a people- it’s just a useful generalization. I.e. Everybody knows that what is really meant by the sole-representative-expression is that they represent a overwhelming majority of tamils
As has already been pointed out several times over the past few days, the TNA won the elections because they were the ONLY party allowed to caampaign throughout the NE. The LTTE’s claim to be the representative’s of the NE Tamils therefore isn’t even by default (which would be bad enough) but because they have driven all other separaatist groups out of the NE. If they were to allow other groups to participate, you’d find out rather quickly just how many representatives there are. The GoSL might as well claim to be the sole representative of the SL Tamils, since they were voted in by the whole country as a whole.
As correctly stated the TNA won, even in occupied Jaffna, with about 90 percent of the Tamil vote. They campaigned on a pro-independence, pro-LTTE stand and lest there is any confusion on their role in Tamil political leadership, they also campaigned on the basis that the LTTE is the sole representative of the Sri Lankan Tamils. They are closely aligned with the LTTE and operate as the LTTE’s unofficial political proxy in the Sri Lankan political system.
Your right that other TAMIL political parties were discouraged from participating and from a Tamil nationalistic perspective that was the right and critical course of action. At a time of war with an external force (i.e. the Sinhala people), the election was to decide on a TAMIL representation for Tamils or a SRI LANKA representation for Tamils. The Tamils chose the TNA and went for the TAMIL representation for Tamils. They had every option to vote for any of the other Sri Lankan parties, be it the UNP, SLFP…etc. They didn’t. They chose the LTTE as their sole representatives.
Quite simple really, when you can read the facts straight within its correct context.
Some of us seem to prefer to make it hard and convoluted just so that the main Sri Lankan government propaganda thrust can be maintained that the Tamils and the LTTE should be disassociated.
Blacker – do unto that horse what a certain Michael Jackson advocated in his 1983 number 1 hit single
Billie Jean it?
Ooooh, I see what you did there.
I agree with Murali. Why can’t people accept that the Tamils overwhelmingly support the LTTE?
And anyway Tariq I think that advice would be better suited for the SL army not Blacker. Lets talk.
Some geezer calling himself Murali just spun the most convoluted globule of a pus-laden doosra I’ve ever read:
“Your right that other TAMIL political parties were discouraged from participating…”
Discouraged? Oh, you mean, discouraged in the same way Neelan Thiruchelvam, the former leader of the largest constituent party of the TNA was discouraged? He happened to be a little too discouraged to run for elections because he was killed by an LTTE suicide bomber. So strange how those suicide bombers have such a discouraging effect on politcal opponents, isn’t it?
“…and from a Tamil nationalistic perspective that was the right and critical course of action.”
I see.
So, just to be clear: Are you condoing the type of discouragement? Or, just the discouragement itself? What alternative types of effective discouragement would you advocate?
“…At a time of war with an external force (i.e. the Sinhala people), the election was to decide on a TAMIL representation for Tamils or a SRI LANKA representation for Tamils. The Tamils chose the TNA and went for the TAMIL representation for Tamils. They had every option to vote for any of the other Sri Lankan parties, be it the UNP, SLFP…etc. They didn’t. They chose the LTTE as their sole representatives.”
That’s absurd. Having a policy of killing all other Tamil dissidents, don’t really give the voters much choice, does it? Killing of the leader of the the larget constituent party of the TNA and threatening the rest of the members unless they toe the line, isn’t really democracy is it? It’s more like blackmail and terrorism, isn’t it? Having a policy of only allowing the voters to vote when you want them to vote, and not allowing them to vote in some elections when you don’t want them to vote, is not really democracy either, is it? Especially, when anyone who did vote is threatened with violence. Did you hear about that one solitary guy who voted in the Presidential election and got his hand chopped off, as a thank you for doing his democratic duty?
If the LTTE were actually the sole representatives in the hearts and minds of the Tamil people, why not let other Tamil parties contest? There’d be nothing to lose.
You contradict yourself. If the LTTE is the sole representative why do they need to “discourage” opponents? To hold on to that status by force, artificially? That completely undermines the legitimacy of the claim, and only proves the Tamil people are scared of the LTTE.
You shoot your own argument in the flipper, you silly dugong you. Here, have some seaweed.
The LTTE tolerates no dissent because they are by nature authoritative. There is no logical nexus between authoritarianism and insecurity of being rejected and reality that rejection would occur. The LTTE are not the sole reps of the Tamils. No one can ever be anyone else’s sole rep. The rhetoric of sole rep came up to set the LTTE apart from other militant groups. Even the LTTE does not use the sole rep rhetoric anymore. It’s a ridiculous discussion. The whole issue of sole rep obscures the more pertinent point which is “Who do the Tamils think provides the best chance of negotiating a solution out for them.” And why do they think that way. Why do the Tamils, even the ones that dislike the LTTE, balk at the idea of the army defeating the LTTE militarily. Why do Tamils who dislike the LTTE, call the LTTE the “movement” or militants as opposed to terrorists. Maybe this is semantics, but there is a huge issue here re Tamils-LTTE relationship and its dynamics, and the sole rep discussion is a bit of a smokescreen I feel and does not do justice to the issue.
I agree. The thing is the enemies of Tamil Eelam advocated elections and such to the Tamils prior to the ceasefire and in the early part of the peace process. They felt that the Tamils would not vote for the LTTE once they were enticed by superficail peace dividends of 2002. Their ideas were dealt a body blow in the 2004 April elections when Tamils voted overwhelmingly in support of the LTTE. Suddenly the democratically elected MPs were either threatned or even shot dead. With the numerous Pongu Tamil demos in Eelam and abroad attended by thousands of Tamils, the propaganda that Tamils are forced by the LTTE to support them went down the drain.
Sorry let me be more clearer. I agree with Aathavan when he says this sole rep argument is a smokescreen to hide the more important truth which I then mentioned in my comment.
I’m not clear how you agree when Aadhavan is saying something completely different and possibly contradictory, but whatever.
Again, it is tough to call this a choice when the LTTE is claiming and enforcing sole representative status. Choosing your representative typically implies other options. In this case any Tamil who supports civil rights or even independence (both valid ideas) has no other alternative to the LTTE.
That is why the term ‘sole representative’ isn’t a smokescreen, it’s actually very real and bloody.
It’s like a family that owns a vicious bull terrier to guard their home. Obviously, they don’t think that the doig represents them; however, they are willing to feed and look after it and trust it to keep the neighbours away. They are also willing to put up with having family members regularly bitten as part of the bargain. Once outside threats are no longer there, they will stop feeding the dog, and probably get rid of it. The dog doesn’t like this stage 2 of the plan, and hopes to (a) keep the outside threat credible and (b) get strong enough that it doesn’t need to depend on the family hand outs.
[...] indi.ca on which who the LTTE represents, along with a background on the diversity within the group of people who speak in Tamil. “The highest concentration of Tamils is in India (Tamil Nadu) and I know Tamils from Singapore, Malaysia etc who don’t identify with Sri Lanka or the Wanni at all. They’re definitely Tamil, but the “Tamil people†are united more by language and culture than any particular land.” Neha Viswanathan [...]
people,
this is what it comes down to:
during a time of war (despite the CFA there is still a war on) democracy takes a back seat…
the US has become “less free” than prior to 9/11… and during WWII the US even imprisioned its own citizens just because of their heritage (japanese americans internment)
the NE has faced 50 years of war and peaceful struggle for the tamils rights… as a result the level of “democracy” is not very high… democracy didn’t achieve anything for the tamils for the first 30 years and this led to the armed struggle as the last resort… it was IMPOSSIBLE for the tamils to get any justice through the courts or parliamentary politics… THAT IS A FACT…
once a just peace is achieved the LTTE will submitt to the will of the voters and the system of govt will not be the same as it currently is…
but during war it is unreasonable to expect a military organization in the midst of fighting a war, and being attacked on all sides, to put itself “on the chopping block”… any suggestion that it do so or “allow space for dissent” are just thinnly veiled attempts to weaken them through dilution… war is hell
that is what the GOSL, civil society, the international community and all BUT the Tamils are striving to do… they (the govt/sinhala) don’t see the solution as being to arrive at a just peace… they see the solution as MARGINALIZING THE LTTE AND THEN GIVING THE TAMILS WHAT the sinhala Govt FEELS like giving to them… without the LTTE the Tamils will get far less than with the “stick” that is the LTTE. FACT
Machan Aadhavan, can we make a deal? I’ll keep telling Janapathi to go fuck himself….and you do the same to Nuts. If I do it, he might say it’s majoritarian discrimination.
Seriously though, even if consensus cannot be reached this blog has facilitated discussion between the communities. It might just be a start….
A quite excellent analogy that Blacker.
Aadhavan, I see your point that the choice for the Tamil is not who their representative is but what that representative can achieve. If you think A is more expeditious to achieve your ends than B you will choose B. If we call the LTTE A, then A has eliminated the entire alphabet except itself. You say the rhetoric came about to set the LTTE apart. Fair enough. But in the current context apart from what? Karuna?
Interesting – because Karuna has said much the same thing about the reimplemented PTA that the LTTE might say. It’s like asking one side of the coin to be defaced or removed but still wishing to use it as legal tender. Karuna and the LTTE are peas in the same pod. While the two exist there can be no ‘sole’ rep even with the adoption of the LTTE’s use of that term.
In a larger context, as you say – nobody can be anyone else’s sole rep. But that’s a philosophical point that needs a bit of alcohol fuelling.
Do you really believe the LTTE will further your cause more than Neelan could have? Honestly I don’t think so. I think to this day, any proposal put forward by Mrs. Thiruchelvam will have far more credibility than anything Thamilselvam brings to the table.
The LTTE are not the sole reps in the current context. Even if they were chosen by the Tamil people to be so, it won’t be the correct choice to make.
There is a crying need for intelligent, moderate yet nationality conscious Tamils to provide themselves as alternative voices, but they have to face the risk of being sacrificed on the pyre of sole representation. It’s very sad. I think deep down the Sinhala people really do want to make peace with the Tamils and are embarrassed at successive government’s handling of them. They just don’t want to make peace with the LTTE. Tamils distance themselves by association as you are often judged by the company you keep.
Vut to do.
“Even if they were chosen by the Tamil people to be so, it won’t be the correct choice to make.”
hahahhaa
so, you know what’s good for the tamil people…
you make my point man… it is not for you to decided what’s good for the tamil people…
people like neelan got NOTHING done for the tamils from 1948- onwards…
if not for the LTTE they wouldn’t even have been listened to…
i know you hate it… but tamils do support the LTTE and Tamils, even those who disagree with their methods know that without the LTTE the Tamils would be worse off…
no you “intellectual” psudo-liberal sinhalas say, “tamils, please trust us… we know the govt was/is bad. but through majoritarian democracy and devolution we will give you your rights. but first we have to marginalize the LTTE we can’t implement anything until we defeat “terrorism. What? you’re worried about us keeping our promise? Please, trust us, ignor history. This time we’ll implement it. Just please don’t support the LTTE”
you think we’re idiots?
What the LTTE is getting done is the complete opposite of Tamil people getting to live in any kind of peace and prosperity.
The LTTE is not facilitating a solution and clearly doesn’t look interested in anything other than an unviable seperate state.
The Sinhalese can’t make peace with the LTTE because its difficult to trust that they actually WANT peace.
The Tamils can’t make peace with a Sinhalese govt because they never look like they’re even trying to understand their grievances.
But Tamils don’t seem to think that the LTTE is in a position of power to force a solution without a seperate state if they want to. The LTTE has greater freedom of action.
It’s the flip side of the “if Mahinda wants peace he’ll make a proposal for devolution.” It works equally well for the LTTE.
A realistic proposal. Not the ISGA.
If the LTTE really want peace within a seperate state they can state the parameters of the solution and force the SL govt to (international pressure would be
The LTTE must reform before power can be handed over to it by a willing Sri Lankan government. The LTTE cannot attain their state militarily. Therefore, they have to negotiate at some point, or risk keep the civilians under their control continually in poverty and fear of death.
The present “authoritarian” nature of the LTTE that “discourages” political opponents does not lend itself to having power handed over to it. The LTTE has to change before federalism can become a reality, and the Sri Lankan Tamil community must realise it.
so ravana,
your solution is that the LTTE has to change so that they are more acceptable to the sinhlaa govt… the same sinhala people and govt that through their actions since independance in essence “created” the LTTE…
do you see how illogical that is…?
the LTTE fight for SELF determination… they can continue that fight… why should they “take a step back” without gauruntees?
as far as NKR goes:
the ISGA was a STARTING POINT for negotiation…
for the sake of argument: if you want federalism, you don’t start negotiating from federalism and then end up at whereever. The LTTE gave up separation in Oslo, and then proposed the ISGA. if the govt was honest in its negotiations it would have made a counter proposal…
so far though…. nothing from the GOSL… why should the LTTE make another proposal?
Let the Sinhala south decide what they want to offer and then all can sit down and discuss from the GOSL package and ISGA and arrive somewhere in the middle…
The lack of response to the ISGA is an indication of how seriously it was taken. If the LTTE want to work within Sr Lanka they’ll have to do a lot better than that.
As for why the LTTE should change, why not? Even if they fly a plane into a session of Parliament and kill the President, PM and all the MPs, they’ll never get a seperate state. India and the world won’t allow it and little Sri lanka can’t exist without the world, much less the littler state of Eelam.
In negotiations, both sides have to change themselves to be acceptable to the other. It’s called compromise. And the LTTE doesn’t just have to change itself to be accepted by the GoSL. It has to change itself to be accepted by the world, which at the moment has clearly said it does NOT accept the LTTE — hence the banning. The Provos were able to do this successfully without losing the faith of the Irish Catholics, and this led to peace. Right now, NO ONE is going to give ANYthing to the Tigers as long as they continue terrorism. It’s pure fantasy that it’ll happen, but the Tigers preach the propoganda that only uncompromising war will bring peace. Sort of like fucking for abstinence. But nuts like Nuts still swallow the line, and remain blind, particularly since they don’t suffer the consequences.
As for the ‘war is hell’ rubbish, that is exactly what the Sinhalese right wing advocates too. We can’t make compromises to the Tigers because we’re at war with them. So once the war is over and we’ve wiped out the Tigers, we’ll be nice to the Tamils. Both arguments are retarded.
“In negotiations, both sides have to change themselves to be acceptable to the other”
how has the GoSL changed itself…?
but, i think you’ve got it wrong davey… in negotiations both sides have to be willing to change their “positions’ not who or what they are… the LTTE HAS compromised during the post-CFA period….
the intial demand was Eelam,
then federalism
how did the GoSL position change?
we don’t know because they’ve never stated it…
it’s tough to defend a “failed state” that doesn’t adhere or recognize the validity of the international agreements or covnents it has signed…
“in negotiations both sides have to be willing to change their “positions’ not who or what they are…”
That’s where you are wrong. What the LTTE is, is a military/terrorist outfit. It is crippled in other areas. THAT has to change. Just as PIRA transformed itself, and even the JVP, the LTTE has to begin to evolve if they don’t want to remain dinosaurs.
On the subject of change, there were many changes (including the offer of fedaralism) by the UNP. Administrations change, that’s democracy, and the LTTE opted for this administration over the last. Therefore it’s a bit childish of you to say “Boo hoo, we want achange”. If the LTTE wanted peace, why did it refuse the NE the vote at the last elections. Answer that, and you’d have answered your own question about change.
“it’s tough to defend a “failed state—
So don’t. You’re the one defending the LTTE.
Right now, on the military front, this administration has done admirably. It has outfought the LTTE by choosing its battles carefully, and by the huge number of deaths are exclusive to the Tamil population. Tamils are killing Tamils and the Sinhalese are doing relatively OK for a 3rd World nation. Do you thing this administration is going to be sympathetic to a NE population that would have overwhelmingly voted for the UNP? If the LTTE, the TMVP, the exiled Tamil politicians, and the diaspora don’t give a shit about their own people, I think you’re Nuts to expect the GoSL to care.
the sinhalese chose this govt… whatever the reason for not voting… it showed that the majority of the south wanted war…
LTTE is a military org that is evolving into a state provider of services… see Stokke’s piece… they would evolve quicker and more efficiently if they didn’t have to fight a war, were able to collect taxes, and recieved the amount of international aid that the GOSL does…
i said it was tough for YOU to defend a failed state that you DON’T EVEN LIVE IN ANYMORE…
“the sinhalese chose this govt… whatever the reason for not voting… it showed that the majority of the south wanted war…”
This is completely untrue. While the war is the top election priority in the North East in the rest of the country the top priority is the cost of living. This is according to surveys carried out by SRl, LMRB or AC Nielsen (I can’t remember which one at the moment). The TV campaign was not on the war, it was on the cost of living. The Sinhalese did vote this government into power by the slimmest margin ever. But it was because they believed that they’d be better of economically. They really don’t care as much as the tamils do about the war. Honest. Why should they?
“i said it was tough for YOU to defend a failed state that you DON’T EVEN LIVE IN ANYMORE…”
Er… I live in Colombo, and I’m not defending Eelam. You are.
oh, you back from germany then?
Apparently. Glad you find time to read the newspapers.
Nuts – you seem to have completely avoided giving a very simple yes or no answer to my question of whether you will move your Eutopia aka Eelam when it is won by the single minded struggle of Tamils all over the world. There might be a bit of a immigration issue when all 74 million want to move into their traditional homeland no? You better mark out your plot on one of the A9 junctions.
haha, good one…
i would love to be there now…
but the borders are closed…
but yes, i would move there…
already got land there machan…
:)
HA HA what a joke “The LTTE must reform before power can be handed over to it by a willing Sri Lankan government.”
Sri Lanka is a failed state with appaling corruption and human rights violations. It is the first country with a govt and army being accused by UN (Alan Rock ) of forceful child recruitment for armed combat. Two Tamil MPs have been killed with impunity. Investigation by the Nordic monitoring mission into the massacre of Tamil aid workers was hampered by the army in August. No one from the army or police has been held accountable for the thounsands of Tamil civilian deaths since 1983. Now the SL govt has grossly violated the CFA by occupying more land in Sampur and Muhamalai causing the war to deepen.
Ravana your argument seems to suggest that the SL govt is some kind of responsible govt. In actual fact only the land is important for them. They don’t really care if all the 3.5 million Tamils were killed off as long as SL is a unit state.
Not at all. I’m not saying the Sri Lankan government is not without fault. Not even the government of the most powerful country in the world is without fault. Can you really justify America’s actions in the last 5 years as morally justifiable?
The question has nothing to do with the issue. What I’m saying is what needs to be done to to facilitate a solution. The LTTE can’t win this war purely militarily, and neither can the GoSL. Tehy can weaken each others’ negotiating position and that’s all they can do before reaching a negotiated solution.
The government of Sri Lanka, I think, will never hand over power to the LTTE in it’s present form. So, if there is to be a solution, the LTTE will have to change. Otherwise the war will go on. The war going on is worse for the Tamils tyhan it is for the rest of the country. If the LTTE truly does want what is best for Tamils, then they must realise this and change.
Ravana’s right. The GoSL will not hand over power to the LTTE as long as it remains a terrorist outfit, and the LTTE cannot take power by force. So what’s left? A long stalemate. In other words, the status quo is extended — war continues, Tamils are killed, wounded, dispossessed, disenfranchised, with no end in sight. Meanwhile, the rest of Sri Lanka cruises happily along, doing fairly decently for a 3rd world nation. Is that what you & the LTTE suggest is best for the Tamil people? Wouldn’t it be far more reasonable for the LTTE to swallow its pride and adapt to the situation the way PIRA did?
Your arguments are valid in that there must be a negotiated settlement for enduring peace on the island. However from a Tamils perspective the status quo must change and we must increase our bargaining power. In most Tamils minds we have lost a lot in terms of land, politicians and people during this ceasefire. No post war development aid, no post tsunami aid, no ISGA and hundreds of thousands displaced before the war are still living in refugee camps unable to return to their homes and land due to the high security zones. Like you said the south has enjoyed most of the peace dividends and even then the south was not affected during the last war. From what I have seen, heard and read the majority of Tamils are respolute that there must be no army presence in the Tamil areas in order to restore the normalcy that was promised by the CFA. And there is only one way that the army is going to leave those areas. The LTTE has to help them out.
Do you seriously think that the Tamils are going to get ANY of the things that you’ve mentioned through war? I have visited many areas of the NE during the truce (both GoSL and LTTE areas), and since, and believe me, things were a lot better then. Yes, a lot of things that the Tamils should be given, weren’t given, but you can’t expect things like aid monies to be simply handed over to a terrorist group without long negotiations. The LTTE grew impatient of these negotiations and moved back to war.
There was no land siezed by the GoSL during the CF, but before. Most of the politicians you’ve lost has been in fighting between factions of the LTTE.
If you’ve been reading that the Tamils demand the Army leaves their areas, I must be skeptical of your sources of information. As for the LTTE driving the Army out, forgive me if I smirk, but it hasn’t happened in 25 years, and doesn’t look likely now. The LTTE simply doesn’t have the manpower to hold the areas for any length of time unless there’s a massive influx of diaspora Tamils to reinforce the ranks (and I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for them). The only way the Tamils are going to get back their lands is through peace. If we can’t have free access to the roads of our capital, you think the Tamils are going to get free access to their lands until the war’s over? And from what I’ve heard, most Tamils are just as worried about their land being siezed by the Tigers.
Hi sorry for the delay in responding. How can you say that there was no land seized by the GoSL during the ceasefire. You must be suffering from a convinient form of acute amnesia. In August the Gosl invaded Mavillaru, then they took the whole chunk of Sampur and then they took Muhamalai all in gross violation of the ceasefire agreement. Thats what I meant and thats what you have conviniently forgot.
Anyway the Tamil TNA politicians including Kumar Ponnampalam, Raviraj, Joseph Pararajasingam, Chandra Nehru, Vanniyasingam and many other political, bank, aid and newspaper editors have all been killed off by the army or its paramilitaries. That is the truth.
Tamils are well aware that Karuna is a spent force and that the Gosl and army intelligence are proping his group up and shoring it up with ex EPDP, PLOTE etc. The UN report by Alan Rock even condemns the SL army for abducting underage Tamil children to fight for the Karuna group. Thats ample proof to prove the point.
Anyway we as Tamils are not prepared to wait and end up like Palestinians and Fatah. The Palestinian organisations are all pathetic firing into the air and blowing up innocents. By getting Yaser Arafat into the trap they corrupted him and the Fatah. The ordinary Palestinians still have a hopeless, forlorn future. Yes Isreal has to exist but not at the expense of the Palestinians. Palestinians have lost all their bargaining power.
Tamils have learnt our lessons and will never allow Eelam struggle to follow that pathetic path.
“As for the LTTE driving the Army out, forgive me if I smirk, but it hasn’t happened in 25 years, and doesn’t look likely now”
David Blacker. That was the past. The LTTE changed with their Vanni counter ops of late 1999 followed by the overrunning of Elephant Pass military complex in April 2000.
I am sure the LTTE have not wasted the last 5 years of talks . Lets not look into the past lets look to the future. The future’s Bright. The Future’s Tamil Eelam.
I’m afraid 1999 & 2000 are also the past. Have a look at the calendar, it’s almost 2007, and the LTTE haven’t had a SINGLE victory this year. I’m ready to believe if there was even a hint of fact in your statement. You use the words truth, proof, fact, but have nothing but the words to back it up. I’m not asking for drastic evidence, but a few simple signs that the LTTE has the ability to get what they want. Even as we speak they are losing the last bit of coastline they hold in the Batticaloa district.
Mavillaru and Sampur were both battles started by the LTTE which they couldn’t win. I meant that there were no lands siezed arbitarily from the Tamil population. The LTTE is not the latter.
David is this plain ignorance or do you enjoy distorting the truth? Sampur and Mavilaru had 40 000 Tamil civilians who were displaced from the region due to SLA shelling. The BBC interview of civilians in October showed that the SLA had systematically used shelling to herd the population South across the Verugal into Vaharai. As they are all civilains who wish to remain in Vaharai rather than GOSL territory they are considered LTTE also and are being annhilated. All the areas the SLA captured were in total breach of the CFA no matter how you try and justify it. The LTTE said that it was a tactical withdrawal. What you haven’t realised is that the LTTE are playing a better political game here. They have shown by greater military restraint who the real aggressor is unlike the accustions against the LTTE in 1995.
The LTTE have shown their capability at Muhamalai against the cream of the SLA. That is proof enough.
All in the South including the SLA thought the war would erupt after the speach on 27 Nov. However at that time the SLA were ready. Also all critics of LTTE would have mindlessly parroted the age old accustation when the SLA is loosing. i.e “Oh they (LTTE) used the CF to rearm and regroup”.
The truth is in 2002 the LTTE came to the CFA with a stronger position than the SLA or GOSL. The counter ops against Rod of Fire in April 2001 and the July 24 firworks at Katunayake spiced down the economy as well as troop morale. Just read up the casualty rates for the 48hr battle on 24 April 2001. The GOSL had to talk and the SLA had to regroup. For the LTTE side the North and East had to have economic restrictions lifted as people were sufffering. They beleived that the ISGA would be possible.
The GOSL has used the 5 years to regroup and revamp the economy and are feeling cocky again.
Don’t know what Vanni have instore for 2007. Maybe nothing will happen until 2008. Maybe the SLA will die off with all the tension in the atmosphere. Like the BBC says only one man can decide the future peace for the island.
All said, can’t beleive the SLA did that dirty thing in Colombo today to diffuse the tension. Evil buggers.
Let’s flip it … Does this Government represent the Sinhalese in Sri Lanka? Are the actions it undertakes done in the name of all Sri Lankans? Of course the Tigers can’t be the sole representatives of the Tamil-speaking people, or the Tamil people. But I feel, neither can the Government claim to represent all the citizens of Sri Lanka – unless they win by – say a two-thirds majority. But even two-thirds majority doesn’t mean all the people, right?
In today’s DM, the JHU claims the Government belittled public opinion by not banning LTTE. What support does the JHU, or JVP, or NMAT actually have? I’d love to read a run-down of their support base…
So, imho, the system is flawed. We need to re-think the whole idea of voting. We need to re-think the way we are governed.
Ravana, I understand your point of view. You can’t get yourself to trust the LTTE to wield power responsibly if there is a solution. I don’t know what you think Tamils can do to respond to this problem, because as you say the LTTE does not tolerate dissent. So either way, even by your own admission, the Tamils are helpless and can do nothing. The ball is not in the Tamils court. To logically extend your line of thinking, the LTTE must be forced to change before a solution, and since the Tamils can’t do this only the GoSL and the IC can. And what if the Government and IC can’t change the LTTE, then too bad for the Tamils. I think this is the kind of thinking that has failed this country. I think the excuse that the LTTE must change before power is shared is cited by many who don’t want to see change. Who don’t want the Sri Lankan central government to share power with the Tamils. I’m not saying your fears aren’t genuine, just that your line of thinking is exploited by people who support status quo. By people who know that if you extend status quo, the LTTE are not going to succumb to the pressure of the GoSL or IC in a hurry, and thus a negotiated power sharing agreement can be avoided or indefinitely put off. You see, just like you can’t get yourself to trust the LTTE, the Tamils can’t trust the Government either to not go back to pre 1983 after the LTTE is gone or militarily weakened. You say the South has changed, but Tamils don’t trust the Southern polity. They don’t seem to see the changes that you see when they witness the President signing pacts with the JVP and JHU. When the Supreme Court starts saying that International Human Rights are not binding on this country and that the merging of the NE provinces according to the Indo lanka accord was unconstitutional. This is the problem. There is a breakdown of trust. To change the problem, you have to usher in a set of conditions that will induce change from both parties. i think this is where federalism comes in, but that’s another debate.
Aadhavan, being a law student I would expect you to appreciate both judgements of the Supreme Court. They were both correct. Not ideal, but correct. You cannot ask the SC to uphold the stupidity of our politicians and their lack of respect for the due process of law. Let me reiterate BOTH judgements were not per incuriam. Besides, if this is the sort of protection bad executive practice gets, I think we should be happy about it.
Nuts has a point and I’ll grant that to him. ISGA was starting point for negotiations. Not, by Nuts’ own admission the end result. GoSL really SHOULD have negotiated upon it. The more skillful the negotiators the more their party would have got. ISGA was a means to achieving a compromise – not the eventual result. We were stupid not to have taken up the challenge – it gives credibility to the claims made by people like Nuts that there is no bona fide and talks must only be on GoSL terms. It was a stupid mistake. Not of the proportions of 1983 but just as damaging to the process.
The LTTE will not change. I think it’s time we all accepted this. It doesn’t make the legitimate grievances any less legitimate. They need to be addressed.
Once people like Nuts move out of Colombo (which is full of dirty Sinhalese) back to his traditional homeland, I’d like to see how quickly he comes running back shouting “No Uncle P, my arsehole is only so big”. Put your money where your mouth is Nuts, will you move to Eelam if it is declared.?If not – shut the fuck up.
Nuts is right in one thing. We, the ‘pseudo – liberal Sinhalese’ do not bear the scars of the past. If your bird ditches you three times you wouldn’t go back would you? It’s easy for us to say forgive and forget because – in my opinion at least – we created the problem in 1956. Once the fight begins no apologies are owed for retaliations. But we threw the first punch and we will have to live with that forever.
I don’t disagree with Aadhavan about the fact that the ball is in the Sinhala court. So regardless of the LTTE’s violent disposition we have to make concessions first. If we don’t – it’s only a matter of pride and nothing else.
I agree that the GoSL should make concessions first. The ball has been in our court from the time of the EU banning of the LTTE (and possibly before). The GoSL should have used the wave of international sympathy usefully. Instead, it squandered it by dragging its feet until we’re periliously close to parity with the LTTE in IC eyes. Conversely, I don’t think it’s unrealistic to expect SOME change from the LTTE (be it token). A simple gesture such as ceasing Sea Tiger activity (a CFA violation by itself) for a month along the eastern seaboard, or a withdrawal of troops from a contested area, would suffice to soften things.
On the subject of Tamil resistance to the LTTE, I think it’s also a bit pathetic for the Tamils to say “what to do, we’re scared”. I think if there was even an attempt to form a people’s resistance to the LTTE, the GoSL would be quick to fund it as they are funding the TMVP. Resistance by the tamils to the LTTE will be the only way the Tamils can show that the Tigers don’t represent them. It’s no point saying all we have are the Tigers. Revolt is bloody, but it’s the only real way to change things, as the LTTE has shown us. Isn’t it time the Tamils turned the tables on them?
“turn the tables on them”
who says the tamils want to turn the tables on them…
david, as you’re so fond of telling me… where’s your supporting documentation that says the tamils don’t support the LTTE… you keep saying it and i keep saying the opposite… where’s your evidence?
Where’s yours? I didn’t say the Tamils don’t support the LTTE. And at no point have I asked for documentation. What I do want to ask for is an ability to read and comprehend.
The ball was in your court since the LTTE made the ISGA proposal in October 2003. But boy did you guys via President Chandrika F**k it up. That changed a lot of liberal Tamils who were on the fence. Its too late now. The failure of even sharing Tsunami aid and dumping the PTOMs was another clear indication to the Tamil voting masses who voluntarily decided to stay away from voting in Nov 2005 to show their disgust even despite a heavy army presence and intimidating paramilitaries. The horrendous Human Rights abuses on Tamils in the north and east in the one year since last December has really entrenched Tamil feelings this year. The sounds emenating from Colombo show that they aren’t clued up on this either Mahinda’s latest “choose” speech.
soppy sophist, i’ve stated before:
i love the sinhalese people
i love colombo
i love sri lanka
i dislike war and believe all should be done to prevent wars from starting
but there are things that are worth dying for
i would love nothing more than for this war to end and that this island fulfill its tremendous potential…
this whole island could become a paradise…
what does the NorthEast add to Sri Lanka now…?
let it go…
and there will be an “economic union” under which both will prosper…
i, like everyone on this island, will have the right to live where ever i please and can afford…
As long as you don’t have to do the dying, right?
i could be killed or disappeared at any time…
Believe me, mate, the only reason you’d be killed is for your bad use of syntax.And as for disappearing — isn’t having your head up your backside the same thing as that?
funny how davy always gets personal…
angry man syndrome?
short man syndrome?
little penis syndrome?
aiyo, pavum for you
Ah, the great Tamil wit. Or at least half of it.
“what does the NorthEast add to Sri Lanka now…?”
That’s a good question. Why does the Singalese need the land (Tamil Eelam) which is inhabited by the Tamils? LTTE is getting killed while trying to free the land of the TAMILS, but why are the Singala youth “sacrifizing” their lives to keep the Tamils under the rule of their Sinhala leaders?
Umm, I don’t really think many governments (before this one) had problems with some concessions… I just don’t remember which ones were asked for. Purely for my edification, which concessions are the most appropriate?
The only message that I can recall with any degree of clarity from the LTTE is the “piss off, we need our own land and we’re not going to back down on that”. Was there anything more asked for? I’m not saying it’s right but the risk of giving a “concession” unasked for is that it will be dismissed by the LTTE as politicking.
Sophist, as a counterpoint : every other ceasefire/negotiating process was terminated by the fall of a major strategic army base. The once bitten twice shy does apply both ways, although clearly not to the same extent.
the isga and the ptoms were two concessions that were asked for. One was not even discussed, the other was promised and not delivered.
Ok, thanks for the memory jog. The validity of a LTTE dominated ISGA, I’m still not so sure about (discussion elsewhere on this comment thread more or less sums it up for me)… but the PTOMS not going ahead was stupidity. I can see that much, at least.
so do you agree that the Government is guilty of not even giving decent concessions, even the ones it promises.
No, I don’t agree to the statement you made because I lack sufficient data points to commit to a general case as opposed to a specific instance :) [I'm being all scientific and precise in my language now]
I reiterate that not agreeing to implement PTOMS seems stupid and ultimately counter productive, though. The GoSL has not fought a war with civilians thus far and in my personal view, there has been more erring towards mercy than the LTTE has ever given any of the people it considers enemies. Not going ahead with with the PTOMS to (I speculate here because I can’t remember/don’t know why it didn’t go through) spite the LTTE just seems petty to me.
The CFA had a hell of a lot of concessions for the LTTE:
– disarming of paramilitary groups
– opening of LTTE offices in SLG controlled territory
– allowing of ‘political activity’ in SLG controlled territory
– opening of A9 (I think this was part of the original agreement?)
And what did the LTTE do, go about knocking off all the army intelligence, Tamil peeps who didn’t toe their line, they could find. Wait to go on the confidence building exercise! And of course noone was allowed to carry out political activities in their territory, hell the SLMM was even banned from certain areas.
The PTOMS however was a mistake, but for the ISGA wasn’t the acceptance of the ISGA proposals a precondition to returning to talks? I believe that was how it was framed back when it was first proposed.
People seem to have a short memory when it comes to talk about concessions, etc. Whoever the chappie who was arguing that despite the LTTE having more violations than than the SLA by an order of magnitude the formers violations are ‘minor’ while the latter’s are major like air strikes, etc seems to be missing one salient point. The violations (which included killing political opponents) were a magnitude higher while Ranil was still in power and airstrikes, military action, etc were years ahead in the pipeline.
N makes absolute sense in a thread tainted by verbosity and egos (mine included). Thank you N. Seriously.
just a correction. The LTTE never said that the acceptance of the ISGA was a precondition to talks. The media here tried to portray it that way and lots of people believed the lie. The LTTE only said that talking about an interim administration in the NE during the ceasefire was a precondition. Their proposal was the ISGA and they were willing to talk about it. Of course, the government was sacked by the Chandrika and the ISGA was conveniently forgotten, with the prospect of the peace dividend reaching the people of the NE.
One view would be to fault the government for not discussing the ISGA and offering thier own proposals. Another view would be to see this rejection as a negotiating tactic. “Your first offer is absurd. It’s not even worth discussing. Not interested if you’re going to be like this. Make another offer.”
Sophist, I was making a point about policy and not on the finer points of constitutional interpretation. I was just talking about how the activism of the SC in recent times is perceived by Tamils. The SC is part of the machinery of Government and its decisions do have political consequences. So what I’m saying is regardless of the merits of the case, the decisions made, viewed in terms of policy are troubling. I wasn’t commenting on the legality of the judgement as per the 1978 constitution.
I haven’t really followed the demerger case and haven’t even read the judgement (conscientious law student I am you see….) but even viewing it as a purely legal text, and distancing the policy dimension from the judgement, I have severe problems with the Sinharasa ruling. I think the assertion that the HR Committee was reposed with judicial power via the ratification of the Optional Protocol is based on a wrong understanding of a component of the treaty monitoring process. Also, given that the SC is not reposed with plenary judicial power as per the Constitution, I would think it has gone outside its jurisdiction in determining the constitutionality or otherwise of the acceptance of obligations under international law by the lawfully elected Head of State. I don’t think the Constitution clothes the SC with the jurisdiction to make such a determination. Given that in a dualist state, your international obligations don’t have legal effect until enacted statutorily or incorporated judicially, I don’t see how a promise or guarantee made by the Head of State can violate the Constitution. If the ratification had legal effect, then the Supreme Court should not have said made the comment that this is a dualist state and that the communications were not binding on the Court, while if the ratification were merely political and had no legal effect, how did the same ratification amount to a conferment of judicial power on Geneva?
I can’t believe that you’re asking me this, especially in the light of your own content. It’s a dualist state. President’s can’t trot the globe promising to adopt treaties and conventions and completely bypass the will of the people (which is what parliament, theoretically at least is supposed to represent). If the HR Treaty was passed through parliament (it would have been political suicide to vote against it) things would have been hunky dory.
Your forget your first principles that the judicial arm – especially in instances such as this – does not dictate policy. It is merely an arbiter. If some chauvinist President wanted to do something heinous against minorities and went about it like the cunt that Chandrika was/is, I’m sure you’ll be glad if the SC took the same dim view of procedural impunity.
CJ didn’t say we can’t accede to the Protocol, just that there are procedures to be followed in order to do so. True, his ‘conceding sovereignty to Geneva’ argument is a bit convoluted, but you of all people, I would expect to see where he is coming from legally. It’s not the world’s most passive judgement…but still – it’s wrong, especially of those in the know, to condemn it without qualifying its correctness at least.
I disagree Sophist. I think the judgement was plain wrong. I wouldn’t have a problem if the SC said that because there is no enabling legislation for Protocol 1, the SC couldn’t review/revise the decision that it had made previously. If he had said that the Geneva decision is not binding that would have been cool. But saying that the President was acting unconstitutionally in ratifying Protocol 1 was without legal basis I think. There is nothing to indicate in the ICCPR or Add Protocol 1 that the decisions of the HR Committee were to be binding on the Courts. That means that ratification of Protocol 1 did not unconstitutionally repose any sort of judicial power on the HR Committee. They were only entitled to make communications and recommend action that SL should take in order that it may give effect to its international obligations. Given that these international obligations do not transform automatically into legal rights that are actionable in the domestic sphere in the dualist state that Sri Lanka is, i don’t see how the action of the president was unconstitutional. If the executive arm does not take steps to implement its international obligations by introducing legislation, it’s irresponsible, but not unconstitutional.
Sure the executive can’t act arbitrarily and the SC has every right to call the bluff on unconstitutional action. There’s no dispute there. My point is that the action of the president in ratifying Protocol 1 was not unconstitutional.
“CJ didn’t say we can’t accede to the Protocol, just that there are procedures to be followed in order to do so.”
In the light of his ruling that the accession to Protocol 1 violated Art 3 and 4, that procedure would be 2/3rds + referendum no.
Exactly. That’s my point. We could still accede to it constitutionally.
Generally enabling legislation is passed after ratification. I don’t know of any country that passes enabling legislation before embarking on the ratification process. Normally courts decide on the constitutionality of the enabling legislation and not the accession. But then again, there’s nothing normal about this SC is there?
Sophist, do you really think that the accession was unconstitutional? Do you think that the executive was surrendering the judicial power of the people to Geneva? Because that’s the basis of the unconstitutionality finding…
I would like the discussion on this point to continue, becuase I really want to know.
Assume the GoSL is run by well meaning Sinhalese who want peace (it’s blatantly not)
Then how do you get an opponent like the LTTE to change and become more of a political party? You concede on certain points but you don’t want to be vulnerable when they decide to kill your ass. I certainly feel that the LTTE is now powerful enough to not be changable by anyone, Govt or IC.
The Tamils may not trust Southern polity but the LTTE is now powerful enough to determine elections. I honestly feel that out of the triumvirate of powers in SL (UNP, SLFP and LTTE) one side cannot form a government without the support of the other.
The LTTE are extremely difficult to negotiate with and are impossible to change. Making an appropriate devolution package that is fair would then just be a pointless exercise from the point of view of a Govt that would want SL to stay as one country.
“I don’t know what you think Tamils can do to respond to this problem, because as you say the LTTE does not tolerate dissent. So either way, even by your own admission, the Tamils are helpless and can do nothing.”
I didn’t say they have to do anything… yet. I said they have to understand it. People like Nuts and Jey and Murali don’t seem to understand it at all. When enough Tamils understand it, the LTTE will change… or, at least I think they will.
“So either way, even by your own admission, the Tamils are helpless and can do nothing. The ball is not in the Tamils court.”
Not true. A lot of Tamils are doing something about it. The UTHR(J) people, Paikiasothy Saravanamuttu, Radhika Coomaraswamy. Even you are doing something about it by understanding that the LTTE has to change.
“To logically extend your line of thinking, the LTTE must be forced to change before a solution, and since the Tamils can’t do this only the GoSL and the IC can. ”
No, I don’t think the LTTE can be forced into change. They must change on their own, by realising that there is no other way – because there really isn’t.
I agree with the rest of your statement wholeheartedly. I personally can understand completely why the South shouldn’t be trusted in the eyes of the Tamils. I don’t think there should be a laying down of arms before an agreement is reached. But child recruitment, terrorism, killing of political opponents must stop.
the LTTE are in war mode
they will change when it is appropriate
by the way, i can’t tell you how many of the “tamil” elite in this town deep down secretly cheer the LTTE on…
i don’t know how honest indi is about IP addresses and tracking my ass down… because come what may, the internet is not anonymous and i AM afraid of what would happen to me if i was known…
white van
I think you’re flattering yourself. The white vans are probably after people who actually do things, not some anonymous wanker who feels goood about himself because he cut and paste from tamilnet.
of course you’re right… you know everything don’t you davey wavy
got a little chip on your shoulder ’cause you weren’t smart enough to get into university…
hahaha
Awww, falling back on personal insults again, Nuts. Didn’t they teach punctuation at Eelam Village School? What’s with the uni references every other post? Trying to prove something to us? Maybe you should call yourself Nuts PhD, so that we reallly know you got marks for being an idiot. What happened, you went to the campus gate and said “Let me in, I’m Tamil”? Then when they told you to get lost you decided the big bad Sinhalese were racist? Ha ha. Loser.
Yet another nutjob who thinks that university is the biggest intellectual challenge they’ll ever face.
hahaha
funny boys
I can pick you up in a white trishaw. Who do you think you are, exactly?
i’m nobody, just wanted to see what the reaction would be to a hypothetical
love iritating you fellows
hahaha
Doesn’t look to me like they’re the guys getting irritated.
Alright you lot, grow up.
I don’t think the LTTE is impossible to change at all. I think they HAVE changed to some extent already because of IC pressure. For example, the policy of targetting civilians is no longer so blatant.
and they agreed to discuss a federal solution
the LTTE today are not the same as the LTTE 10 years ago…
and 10 years from now they will have changed further… more so if a “state of war” does not exist
THe Sinhala Army on the other hand hasn’t changed at all. They still keep targeting civlians, but now they have gone to a more brutal level: Click here to watch the recent victims of the Sinhala Army which is beeing hidden by the media in Colombo.
“i love the sinhalese people
i love colombo
i love sri lanka”
Then why in the name of God’s good earth are you wholeheartedly supporting and endorsing an organisation that wants to break away from all the things you love? Surely you can’t love something that discriminates and spits on you every step of the way.
” dislike war and believe all should be done to prevent wars from starting
but there are things that are worth dying for”
I don’t see you joining the enlistment queue for the LTTE now do I? Unless your IP address leads to some checkpoint on the A9 where you type on your tea break while your brethren starve in order to fatten the LTTE coffers with ‘taxes’. BUt that’s okay – there are something’s worth dying for aren’t there? All those starving people in Jaffna are dying for a worthy cause while you are being subjugated in Colombo by the evil Sinhala hordes. Long Live Eelam.
So you didn’t answer my query. Will you move once Eelam is declared? And if not why not? If so, why? Consider it a little comprehension test. Or to put it as you so politely did a little while ago – ANSWER MY QUESTION!
For your edification GW (who is really beginning to piss me off with his JVP-in-opposition approach to everything), one of the concessions asked was to negotiate on the ISGA. We should have negotiated and then called it a waste of time without making our minds up that what the Tamils want is a waste of time. That’s been the accusation all along and we perpetuated it.
Another helpful concession would be to not re-implement the PTA and make an exaggarated gesture of actually implementing a language policy.
NKR if the LTTE stance is anathema to the govt. they should just say that no ‘appropriate devolution can be forthcoming’ and go on an all out offensive. This pussy footing won’t do.
Tsk, tsk, Sophist :) No need to get your tighty whiteys (I love that phrase!) in a bunch :) I don’t see the problem in vocally disagreeing when I clearly don’t agree with a position rather than shutting up and going along with it. There’s a time and place for consensus and I don’t think it’s appropriate in many cases while discussing something on this or any other blog. If you choose to highlight the differences in opinion rather than the commonalities, then there isn’t much that I can do anyway. Again, feel free to tell me why I’m wrong in that view :)
I mentioned groupthink to someone on this blog a while ago – same reason.
On your comment, don’t you think it’s a shade cynical to “negotiate” on something when your mind has already been made up on the outcome? The problem as I understood it was that of poor expression on the part of the government, sadly not an uncommon occurrence.
The PTA reinstatement is stupid, though… But to have the effect you desire, there should have been a proclamation about the ills to the ordinary citizen outweighing the potential terrorist fighting abilities of the act proper – which it most emphatically does. The PTA does have some uses, I feel, but mostly unconstitutional or distasteful ones :)
I can’t see this government ever approaching something in that way though. To just say “we thought about it and we’re not going to reinstate the PTA” is never going to be seen as a concession by the LTTE.
and I can’t resist jumping in on your NKR rejoinder, do you suppose that an all-out offensive hasn’t been contemplated? Our creditors would start demanding payment (war economies not being the best bet to sink money into etc) and our aid would dry up. This goverment might be all sorts of stupid, but even they wouldn’t verge into that area of retardation. We’d become another Liberia or Congo, and that’s assuming the LTTE is defeated inside a couple of years.
Mate, I spend a lot of time reading your posts and even in your long past use by date argument with Ravana on economics you steadfastly stick to your guns, which is admirable, although not always desirable. I haven’t accused you pointing out the differences and not agreeing. You are more than welcome to do that, and I don’t expect agreement.
But to accuse me of not seeing the commonalities, is at the very least, inaccurate and at the most palpably false.
What I accused you of is a barking dog approach to posting on this thread specifically. Saying “what concessions? what concessions?” is vividly similar to the baying JHU, JVP types in parliament. No clue. And no solution.
Come to the party and bring a present. A suggestion, a critique, a fact, a deconstruction, an opinion even. But don’t come to the party spill the bowl of fruit punch and leave.
There were very real concessions asked for and and not offered. The problem with both communities being represented is the tunnel vision and defensiveness of both communities equally. But at least there’s discussion. Forgive me if I impute a higher standard on you (vis-a-vis knowledge of facts, and quality of argument) than I do some others – but you brought that upon yourself when you took me on…and won.
Ah, I apologize but I confess that I was doing something else in some other place when the whole CFA business was going down and I genuinely didn’t (don’t) remember many details. Even the most obsessive of news junkies need to pay their rent and keep themselves in booze and other necessities so occasionally, I take my eye off the ball :) Rather than prowl around the back issues of the news sources at my disposal, I considered it only fair to ask the people already debating the point :) I did prefix the question with “purely for my edification”, did I not? Both aadhavan and N were gracious enough to respond and jog my memory.
thanks muchly for the high expectations though, it’s useful (even in anonymity) to have a standard to live upto… :) However, that part about differences in opinion vs the commonalities still has some validity. Your assumption about why I was asking about the concessions was baseless. I’ve gone on record elsewhere as saying that I want peace to break out. I agree with your opinion that it is incumbent on the government (as the not-sole-but-reasonable-majority representive of Sri Lankans (no, not just Sinhalese)) to make some concessions. However, I have always made the case that there has to be a limit somewhere. [The whole Quebec fuss arose directly from that point]. What price limits when the LTTE breaks the ceasefire with impunity to gain a military or propaganda advantage?
Incidentally, that’s the second time you’ve made the comparison between myself and the JVP. Please don’t continue without a better reason :) Thems fighting words :)
Sorry mate. Takes two to tango. The government does a lot of stepping on feet and an ugly dance number at the best of times but that pales in comparison to the LTTE surgically removing some of its own toes (Neelan?) because they’re awkward to dance with. That has never meant that I don’t advocate negotiating with them but they’re still the guy who mugged us yesterday. How do I know they won’t mug me again tomorrow if their little Eelam state isn’t all they fondly imagine it to be? DB’s view stated earlier mirrors my own. It is as yet unknown if the LTTE will successfully make the same transition that the JVP, Gerry Adam’s Sinn Fein and other parties have done. If they say “ok, that’s it. Give us a tiger’s share (heh) of Colombo harbour, you discriminating majoritarian bastards, or we resume our armed struggle” there is absolutely nothing we can do except go back to slugging it out. Is that an unreasonable fear on my part? I trust the LTTE about as much as the Tamils that Aadhavan describes trust the (Sinhala majoritarian) government. The government has a constitution to uphold and is accountable directly (as a nation state) to the international community. Does the LTTE have similar lines of accountability? If there are sanctions (god forbid), it’s several orders of magnitude easier to enforce them on a nation state’s activities than of a shadowy paramilitary group’s finances, are they not?
I need to know that there is more representation of the Tamils than just the LTTE. For me personally, that is the basis of trust. Voting in the TNA by default or having a vote held at LTTE gunpoint doesn’t even begin to cut it. And I keep going back to this, but I would have trusted someone like Neelan in a heartbeat. There must be more people like that out there, it’s just that I don’t know of them because they’re keeping silent.
neelan was a nice man, but during a time of war if you side with the enemy… well, you then become the enemy. Neelan was working for Chandrika and Kadigama (i left off the r on purpose) and thus chose his “side” in the war…
during war people get killed… why is neelan’s death, horrible though it may be, any less valuable that the 47 that died in Vaharai from multi-barrel rocket fire…? or the LTTE’s Colonel Shankar who was assasinated by a Deep penetration unit of the SLA?
all fair in love and war…
My comment was based on the fact that yes we too have other things to do. Sell Maggi noodles, swindle rich people for commission, pass law exams, plan weddings and drink. So to expect edification at the expense of our time is, I think, slightly presumptuous. The fact that people humoured you is nice. But I can’t be arsed. Don’t enter into a debate if you don’t know what you’re talking about. And that is the high standard I set. For you.
Don’t be lazy. One hardly had to be a news wallah to hear about the ISGA or the PTOMS. That’s all.
The rest of your comment deals largely with what has already been dealth with in some detail on this and other blogs. Your ‘reasonable’ fears are shared by the Tamil community. Aadhavan and I went onto establish – in so many words – that the Army is to the Tamils what the LTTE is to the Sinhalese. So this back and forth ‘you did this’ and ‘we didn’t do that’ is purposeless. And old.
You however, have stumbled upon the fact that GoSL has higher accountability than the LTTE because their representation is legitimate. I’ve been making this point for a while now, but clearly my writing skills are deficient. As a result of this elected representation of Sri Lankans (not Sinhalese) it is imperative that the government ensure that there are NO tamil grievances. Legitimate ones. Asking for a proportionate percentage of the harbour will not – in the eyes of anyone – be a legitimate request.
Have the legitimate grievances been addressed in 50 years? NO! Until then, don’t descend into the depths of parity with the LTTE. Take the noble step of inclusivity of the Tamil people. Show some real overtures. When those are categorically rejected. Then, nobody can condemn the GoSL stance it is taking now. Until the LTTE is shorn of all legitimacy in their struggle the GoSL can’t afford to point fingers.
and by the way… no one ever VOTED for Neelan… he was appointed to the MP job from the TULF national list… and that was due to pressures from colombo… he was a constitutional scholar who got in over his head and took sides in the war…
horrible stuff, but during war yo must live with the consequences of your choices…
Oh dear.. an all-in-one comment to Sophist and Nuts :) I do hope both of you will forgive me for being shoved together in the same textarea :D
Sophist, I assure you that it’s still much faster to consult news sources (I was told about Google News recently, for example :p) than toss a coment out here to further reduce the s/n ratio of this thread. I was asking for perspectives, not a spoon feeding. I expressed myself badly earlier, apologies.
What you think is old, however, I think bears repetition. You know why? It may be tiring but every single time we get on this merry-go-round there are a fresh set of players mingled amongst the old, more familiar pseudonyms. Do we start off by saying consult here and here and over there… oh and a few insightful comments in that blog over there? Of course we don’t. So why make this assumption that everyone knows the backstory? If the purpose is for the same set of people to debate it each time, then let’s take this off the blog proper and do a mailing list… (that isn’t the point of the exercise and you know it as well as I – we’re shooting for inclusivity, at least I am).
If I were to pick at your line of reasoning, I’d accuse you of limiting yourself to unspecified exhortations. Yeah, the government should make a few concessions first. I agree and so do you. Which ones? I vehemently disagree with your position that the state of grievances in 2006 is worse (or still the same) as the grievances in 1956. Progress? Yeah. Enough progress? No.
I made the case earlier that “conceding” something that the LTTE doesn’t ask for is pointless as a negotiating tactic. Then again, I also make the case that representational democracy means that we can’t go around shooting the JHU and the JVP either, even though they’re a nuisance and probably waiting to toss a spanner in the works. Not addressing the concerns of these people leads to accusations of pacifism and “selling out the country” and all the rest of that rabid nonsense. And here we are now, eh?
Nuts, in terms of human life? Neelan was nothing out of the ordinary. In terms of being in a unique position to mediate or even represent the legitimate grievances of Tamils? Pretty much everything. But the LTTE decided that he was too big a threat to their own ambitions, huh? There is a huge spectrum of opinion that nominally resides under the protection of the GoSL, even today. What does the LTTE (the sole representative) fear so much that it needs to suppress that diversity of opinion among the ranks of Tamils?
ghost,
two words:
Patriot Act…
the supposedly freest country in the world now squashes freedoms, tortures, etc
and the US is over 200 years old and is a “mature” state…
in war, freedoms are restricted… i’m not excusing it… i’m telling you that’s a fact…
So the entity which dubs itself the sole representative of the Tamil community best expresses itself by the quashing of their freedom of expression and outright murder of people who don’t fall into line with their own agenda?
One of the many reasons why your Patriot Act comparison is laughable (I’m not laughing at you, just your example :), the US administration doesn’t go around gunning down the members of the ACLU for protesting the Patriot Act. The Patriot Act can be repealed (the next sunset debate is a few years from now IIRC) and portions of it are already being challenged legally (section 215 is the one I remember).
What due process is there against the LTTE policy of eliminating dissenters? The Patriot Act has a few counter proposals (like SAFE) which seek to reduce the impact on civil liberties… What do we do with the LTTE? Ask them nicely to shoot people in the stomach instead of the head?
At the risk of Godwinning the thread, the LTTE came for Neelan because they didn’t like what he said… If they suddenly decide tomorrow that you talk too much in evil pro-Sinhala websites and come for you, what happens? :)
Also, bwahahaha to 200 years of existence being in any way related to the maturity of a state :)
You see…once upon a time there was once this chappy called SWRD who was a bad bad man. He wanted to become the Prime Minister and wanted these things called votes. Because almost all the people in the country (some call it the majority) were Sinhalese, SWRD decided that if all the Sinhalese people voted for him he would win. So he passed an act called the Sinhala Only Act 1956. This was really really kind to the Sinhalese. But the Tamil people and the Burgher people didn’t like it very much.
Because of the Act lots of Tamil people who were doing their things in English suddenly found they couldn’t do things like register their cars anymore. So they got a bit annoyed. They complained about it, but nobody did anything. And still hasn’t.
The Tamil people thought that bad old SWRD didn’t care about them. But he only wanted to win an election. He didn’t think the Tamils were bad or anything. But all the President’s and Prime Ministers never cleared up the mess.
The moral of the story is, that if you step on someone’s foot, you must take your foot away as soon as you can and say sorry. Otherwise the other person’s foot hurts and he might angry and push you or something. So you must say “sorry, it won’t happen again”. If the poor man whose foot you stepped on is kind, he might say “excuse me, you’re trodding on my foot”. But if you keep it there, even the polite people will get a bit angry.
If it’s a really bad stamp, yout might even have to help him attend to his shoes. You see?
thanks for the history lesson, Sophist :) Now, is this comment untrue?. Would that have been done in 1956? (I don’t know since I wasn’t around then, but I suspect not)
Progress? Yeah. Enough progress? No.
If you step on someone’s foot, not saying sorry and making it good is silly (more so for a government which does, after all, have an equal responsibility to all its citizens). The person who got their foot trod on asking for the entire leg (you stepped on my foot, give me your leg in return!) is vaguely Shylock. Whipping out a knife and sawing off the leg anyway is vaguely LTTE. And now we’re too busy arm wrestling the guy with the knife to worry (as much as we perhaps should) about where our foot is situated.
Also, *treading (not trodding), but don’t hold me to that :)
It’s depressing because it really looks like the ideal stalemate situation. I think both sides acould go on fighting almost forever. Uncle P is 52 (at least according to Wikipedia, don’t know how true coz I remembered it as 55, but anyway) and has at least two decades of activity ahead of him. I don’t believe all the illness stories. Mahinda is in for the next 12. By that time we’ll all be in deep shit because the firepower just keeps getting more intense.
>>On your comment, don’t you think it’s a shade cynical to “negotiate†on something when your mind has already been made up on the outcome? The problem as I understood it was that of poor expression on the part of the government, sadly not an uncommon occurrence.
Also if the LTTE offered the ISGA in a whacked out ‘bid as high as you can and lets see what we can get attitude’. Then offering your best and fairest solution initially is going to end up haggled up into something that’ll end up as a achcharu. Of course if its a proper negotiation the Sinhalese wil have only themselves to blame for that.
>>I don’t think the LTTE is impossible to change at all
Maybe you can budge them into acting differently for awhile (for tactical reasons) but the LTTE does not hesitate to kill randomly (Kebithigollewa) and has never entered genuinely looked like they want a negotiation for a solution within a seperate state.
Whoops screwed up that last line something beautiful
Indi- I wholly agree with you. In defining who ‘the Tamil People’ supposedly being (mis)represented by the LTTE are, it is important to note that there is a role that religion plays in ethnic grouping in Sri Lankan identity politics. The tamil people mentioned in public discourse refer to the Hindu tamils (north and east/ north east/ up country- any way you chose to define it). Tamil speakers however spread across the Hindu, Muslim and Christian communities. Statistically, it would be interesting to see how LTTE representation shrinks when taking this into consideration as well.
Another point for consideration- there is a distinction, albeit a subtle one, between democracy the ideal and democratic processes. The Sophist- Andhavan dialogue on the SC judgements touched upon this, but did not expressly state the distinction. Majoritarian politics and minority marginalization are products of badly run democracies and can hence give space to arguments such as those made by Murali and Nuts. The ‘by the people, for the people’ definition, is an end for which there are means such as institutional accountability and responsibility, awareness and transparency.
“The ‘by the people, for the people’ definition, is an end for which there are means such as institutional accountability and responsibility, awareness and transparency.”
- and sri lanka has NONE of these things and won’t for many a year…
as far as your religion “analysis” goes… it shows how little you know… LTTE doesn’t avocate any religions idology… in fact their supports and members come from a variety of background: christians, hindus, muslims, buddhist…
high caste tamils dislike the LTTE because the LTTE is against the caste system and the dowery system…
Ehem… only a small minority of them.
….dislike the LTTE.
yes, sorry – that should have stated that SOME high caste tamils at the beginning disliked the LTTE… and some still do… but they are a minority
While I admit that the Tamil Nationalism advocated by the LTTE is not premised on religious ideology, it is safe to say that its acts of anti-muslim and anti-christian terrorism since 1982 have removed these tamil speaking groups (largely) from its fan base.
Anti muslim and Anti-christian? I thought it was definitely more about being anti Buddhist – the massacre of the Sri Maha Bodhi Pilgrims and the attack on the Temple of the Tooth being two prime examples. And what examples are their of anti-Christian behaviour? I’m not challenging you, I just don’t know of any. I always thought Velupillai was a good Catholic boy.
Sniggums is referring to attacks on other Tamil-speaking minorities (Muslims, Christians). As far as I know there is no large segment of the Buddhist population that speaks Tamil. There have been many attacks on Christians by the LTTE, but it’s rarely publicized as such any more than an attack on a Tamil by the LTTE is classed as Hindu. However, at least two RC priests have been killed by the Tigers. But whether this was an attack on Christianity or merely on the individual is arguable.
VP’s a Hindu.
there have been no attacks on RELIGION… there may have been instances where persons of a certain religion were “attacked” but the attack was NOT based on their RELIGION…
even the alleged attacks on Muslims are not motivated by and anti-Islamic feeling… it has more to do with “communal” politics…
same thing with the alledged attacks on the buddhist sites, pilgrims, and monks… has to do with the “communal” and not the fact that they are BUDDHIST…
don’t try and make this a religious war… it’s an ethnic civil war… religion has nothing to do with it…
and by the way, there are sinhala and muslim members of the LTTE: Nadesan (police chief’s wife), one of the Women LTTE in geneva is half sinhala with a sinhala father, etc… so there are sinhala-buddhists who are members of the LTTE…
Ha Ha, that’s a silly argument. There are and have been Tamils in the armed forces (Thurairaja, the head of the Medical Corps, Devanayagam, who was a Sinha Regiment commander), so therefore I could claim this isn’t an ethnic war either. Or that the deaths of thousands of Tamils has nothing to do with their race/ethnicity, but a result of a war on terrorism. We could claim that the burning of the Jaffna Library was part of an anti-insurgency op. I could go on, but it would be silly; as silly as your argument. The attacks on the Temple of the Tooth, the Sri Maha Bodhiya, the Arantalawa monks, were certainly attacks on members of a religious group. Who were they trying to kill, Burghers?
but it wasn’t BECAUSE there were BUDDHIST – fuckwit
Anyone here knows what the above sentence means? What’s with this place? The only guys willing to defend the LTTE are retards and morons with names like ‘Haha’ and ‘Nuts’. Must be a reason, no?
“but it wasn’t BECAUSE there were BUDDHIST – fuckwit”
“there” should be “THEY”
and you know there is no religious dimension to this war… on either side…
but play your little game my little bitch…
So why DID they bomb those people? Funny that they don’t bomb kovils, eh? Only mosques, churches, and temples. My point, which while you were looking for your brain you missed, was that your denial of a religious dimension is as silly as a denial of an ethnic dimension.
We’ve never heard of non-Tamils in the LTTE because the LTTE wants this to look like an ethnic war. The GoSL proudly sports its Tamils to do the opposite. That’s why your Tigers hate our Tigers — the latter is proof that the Tamils don’t all want the LTTE.
Ha ha- your argument is irrelevant. It doesn’t matter that the LTTE bombed/ killed/ tortured de-humanized muslims or christians because they were muslims or christians (whatever your opinion is), the fact is is that they still inflicted significant harm on members of these tamil speaking groups. Hence muslims and christians that identify themselves as part of the collective that have been subject to such terror do not agree with the LTTE line of thinking and are NOT represented by the LTTE voice. It isn’t that complicated.
it is the same with the buddhists although thats really obvious
….from the high caste dislike the LTTE. They are changing for the better also as they see the injustices commited in the N and E.
did you just get off the phone with ‘them’?
I am talking about some of my distant relatives (uncles and aunts with old school mentality, Colombo style No) :- )
This is a great post Indi. Niyamai! You should send it to The Lanka Academic so they can feature it.
Indi, you would rather stick to writing your blog about economics & about useless government!
You and some JVP’ers here seem to know jack $hite about all the struggle tamils go through, and be advised majority of the Tamils I have met do support the LTTE!! Don’t live in the cookcoo land!! Admit that Tamils in the island would have got wiped out ages ago if LTTE weren’t there.
But I do like your articles touching finance & economics
Some people really think they are very clever and that they know everything. I admit u r brilliant because, even u ve written stupid things, it seems to be logic. Are u paid by the srilankan government to write so many bullshits? Is it so difficult to accept that a large majority of NE tamils and a large majority of tamils who left srilanka du to the war support the LTTE. Why don’t u talk about how the srilankan governments is trying to eradicate all the Tamils in Srilanka since the independance. Why don’t u talk about the state terrorism of the srilankan governemnt? Don’t try to discredit the ones who defend the Tamils against the genocide perpetrated by the nationalist and racist srilankan government. . Just talk about what u know.
It’s the same discussion all the time. The Sinhalese claim that the TAmil Tigers aren’t the representatives of the Tamil Nation, arguing that the Sinhala Governments are the only ones that have been authorized to “rule” the Tamil Nation.
The Tamils on the other hand claim that the Tamil Tigers are their representatives, arguing that the only thing that the Sinhala Government is interested in is “to eradicate all the Tamils from the Island”, which is partly the truth since more than a million Tamils have either gone aboard fearing for their lives (although Sinhalese say that they went aboard due to economical reasons) or killed in a war orchestrated by the Sinhala Army.
So, whom are we to believe in these sort of “discussions”??
One who is not a Sinhalese would definitely support the Tamils’ views. No doubt about that!
“The Tamils on the other hand claim that the Tamil Tigers are their representatives, arguing that the only thing that the Sinhala Government is interested in is “to eradicate all the Tamils from the Islandâ€, ”
Where exactly do the “Tamils” say this?
“killed in a war orchestrated by the Sinhala Army.”
Actually the war was orchestrated by the LTTE when it took up arms. The cause for that war was Sinhalese racism.
You’re right that most non-Sinhalese would support a Tamil viewpoint. Like me. Just not an LTTE viewpoint.
Btw, thanks for the picture at teh top of this post. It’s very useful!
David Blacker : “I’m afraid 1999 & 2000 are also the past. Have a look at the calendar, it’s almost 2007, and the LTTE haven’t had a SINGLE victory this year. I’m ready to believe if there was even a hint of fact in your statement. You use the words truth, proof, fact, but have nothing but the words to back it up. I’m not asking for drastic evidence, but a few simple signs that the LTTE has the ability to get what they want. Even as we speak they are losing the last bit of coastline they hold in the Batticaloa district.
Mavillaru and Sampur were both battles started by the LTTE which they couldn’t win. I meant that there were no lands siezed arbitarily from the Tamil population. The LTTE is not the latter. ”
Jey
2007-01-06 06:18:48
David is this plain ignorance or do you enjoy distorting the truth? Sampur and Mavilaru had 40 000 Tamil civilians who were displaced from the region due to SLA shelling. The BBC interview of civilians in October showed that the SLA had systematically used shelling to herd the population South across the Verugal into Vaharai. As they are all civilains who wish to remain in Vaharai rather than GOSL territory they are considered LTTE also and are being annhilated. All the areas the SLA captured were in total breach of the CFA no matter how you try and justify it. The LTTE said that it was a tactical withdrawal. What you haven’t realised is that the LTTE are playing a better political game here. They have shown by greater military restraint who the real aggressor is unlike the accustions against the LTTE in 1995.
The LTTE have shown their capability at Muhamalai against the cream of the SLA. That is proof enough.
All in the South including the SLA thought the war would erupt after the speach on 27 Nov. However at that time the SLA were ready. Also all critics of LTTE would have mindlessly parroted the age old accustation when the SLA is loosing. i.e “Oh they (LTTE) used the CF to rearm and regroupâ€.
The truth is in 2002 the LTTE came to the CFA with a stronger position than the SLA or GOSL. The counter ops against Rod of Fire in April 2001 and the July 24 firworks at Katunayake spiced down the economy as well as troop morale. Just read up the casualty rates for the 48hr battle on 24 April 2001. The GOSL had to talk and the SLA had to regroup. For the LTTE side the North and East had to have economic restrictions lifted as people were sufffering. They beleived that the ISGA would be possible.
The GOSL has used the 5 years to regroup and revamp the economy and are feeling cocky again.
Don’t know what Vanni have instore for 2007. Maybe nothing will happen until 2008. Maybe the SLA will die off with all the tension in the atmosphere. Like the BBC says only one man can decide the future peace for the island.
All said, can’t beleive the SLA did that dirty thing in Colombo today to diffuse the tension. Evil buggers.
Ha ha. Thanks for the comic relief, Jey. I must say you do it well.
I didn’t say that Sampur, etc weren’t violations of the CFA. Obviously it is. But the fact remains that they were retaliatory violations spurred by LTTE violations. For example, the closing of the sluice gates by the LTTE in order to deny water to civilians. Both sides are violationg the CFA with impunity, I agree. Point of fact however, is that the GoSL is achieving its military goals.
“The BBC interview of civilians in October showed that the SLA had systematically used shelling to herd the population South across the Verugal into Vaharai. ”
I doubt very much that civilians could give an objective account of SLA strategy or tactics beyound “Shells fell, we ran”, etc.
“As they are all civilains who wish to remain in Vaharai rather than GOSL territory they are considered LTTE also and are being annhilated.”
Sadly, your facts are incorrect, Jey. First, if they wish to remain in Vharai, why is it that everyone who could make the journey to GoSL territory have already done so, leaving behind mostly 15,000 old, sick, and very young? Second, if the GoSL wants to ‘anhilate’ these Tamils, why did they allow in the trucks of food in November? Third, if the LTTE cares so much about these civilians, why are they preventing them from leaving?
“The LTTE said that it was a tactical withdrawal.”
Yes, they DID say that. The point is, do we believe them?
“The truth is in 2002 the LTTE came to the CFA with a stronger position than the SLA or GOSL.”
This is one of the few parts of your post that actually is true. However, the LTTE wasted that opportunity and lost the advantage they had, resulting in the EU ban. The aggression by the LTTE in early 2006 when they were impatient with the peace process, whittled away their position. What exactly is your point, though?
“The LTTE have shown their capability at Muhamalai against the cream of the SLA. That is proof enough.”
Cream? Ha ha. I doubt I’d call the Armoured Corps the cream, but that’s a different story. Muhamalai was a brigade-sized probe to test the northern approaches to EPS. It was on a single squadron front. The LTTE knocked out five tanks and killed a few dozen troops. Hardly decisive in comparison to the loss of almost the entire eastern province, is it?
Bottom line is, Tamils in the NE are suffering badly; Tamils abroad and in the south are fairly happy; Sinhalese outside the border areas are fairly happy too. So only the NE is suffering. How does the LTTE plan on relieving this suffering? Obviously “tactical withdrawals” aren’t working. Bombing buses only makes things. So what does the LTTE have to offer the Tamil people of the NE for 2007, other than ineffective attacks against civilians that just make them look more like terrorists than ever before?
Jey, what guys like you need to do is stop listening to the bombast of Tamilselvam and the hatred of the diaspora, and start paying attention to the suffering of the NE Tamils. What are you going to do to save them? The LTTE can’t defeat the Security Forces. The best they can hope for is to cause enough casualties to force the GoSL back to the table. But that’ll take awhile, and many more Tamils will die proportionately. So what’s the plan?
Good question. I suggest we play our cards close to our chest for now.
Jey, good last two posts above and what was interesting to read was David’s response, wallowing in self-denial.
Just to serve some to the discussion…Muhamalai was a military lesson in defensive operations by the LTTE. David seems to be living in lala land when he claims the defeat had to messages to the SL government. It was a controlled operation by the LTTE that made the SL Army look like fools.
Maybe David is new to the military history of the Eelam Wars, but in any of the previous wars I, II or III, the ability to inflict the lose of around 5 battle tanks, multiple fighting vehicles and around 200 soldiers in a “few hours” is impressive for any army with limited weaponry. It was a display of the LTTE’s tactical and human superiority against massive enemy numbers of well trained and motivated troops. Yes, the SL Army has come a long way with the quality of its front line troops. The Americans were said to be quietly impressed with the LTTE victory.
http://transcurrents.com/tamiliana/archives/207
Maybe what in order for David Blacker is to stop believing in the Sri Lankan government’s own propaganda and take up a reality pill.
Having said that, if I could have resisted the urge to set the facts straight, it would have been wiser of me to keep my fingers to myself and “play our cards close to our chest”.
“It was a controlled operation by the LTTE that made the SL Army look like fools.”
Well, no one wins every battle in a war, so if you want to call the Army fools ‘cos they lost one battle, what do you call the arse kicking the LTTE is undergoing in the East? The security forces have lost one battle, the LTTE has won one; on the other hand, the Army has won every other battle, while the LTTE has lost every other battle. I wouldn’t presume to call the LTTE fools, but you certainly are one, Murali.
“Maybe David is new to the military history of the Eelam Wars, but in any of the previous wars I, II or III, the ability to inflict the lose of around 5 battle tanks, multiple fighting vehicles and around 200 soldiers in a “few hours†is impressive ”
Maybe I am new to war. Maybe actually participating in the fighting doesn’t compare to Googling, but that’s a different topic, for another time. What you, Murali, and the other LTTE apologists here need to do is stop glorying in the past and look at the present realities. Yes, back in ’91, when the Army had all of 25 MBTs, losing five would’ve been a major blow. Not today. And while saying that the LTTE inflicted 200 casualties (nice round figure that) looks impressive on paper, the KIAs were under 20. If you think holding back a half-squadron of tanks on a 300m front from prepared positions is “impressive”, I’m afraid I must conclude that you’re easily impressed.
“The Americans were said to be quietly impressed with the LTTE victory.”
Really? Any evidence of these quiet Americans? Like a link? Thought not. Branching out into fiction writing is laudable, Murali. Good luck with that.
“Maybe what in order for David Blacker is to stop believing in the Sri Lankan government’s own propaganda and take up a reality pill.”
I try to steer clear of all propoganda actually, aand I suggest you do the same.
“Having said that, if I could have resisted the urge to set the facts straight, it would have been wiser of me to keep my fingers to myself and “play our cards close to our chestâ€.”
Aw, stop trying to be such an LTTE wanna-be. Why don’t you say that you just don’t know what’s going on, and that the SL Tamils are like a rudderless ship hijacked by terrorists?
Maybe thats what we are – “rudderless ship hijacked by terrorists”…pity us, really. Moron.
Whoever claims to be the “sole representatives of the Tamil People” is NOT the question. But whom do the Tamils want to support. That’s the Question!
So, why don’t you Singalese discuss about whom is representing you, instead of wasting our time with discussions about everything else than the Question itself?
We know what’s best for ourselves, so there’s no reason for you to “voice-up” and hijack this discussion with all your thoughts which are useless in this context.
And concerning whether the LTTE is the representatives of all Tamils around the world IS OUT OF QUESTION! First of all the LTTE never claimed to represent all Tamils, secondly the author of this thread should know at least a little about the Tamil people to be able to begin a thread about the Tamil Nation.
We are damn happy that we aren’t the only Tamils around and we are damn proud of our brothers and sisters around the world, but still we do have our differences. So, somebody who doesn’t know the relations between the various communities in the Tamil Nation shouldn’t begin a thread about us and talk behind our back.
“Whoever claims to be the “sole representatives of the Tamil People†is NOT the question. But whom do the Tamils want to support. That’s the Question!”
But what’s the answer?
As for who represents the Sinhalese, I guess the GoSL represents everyone outside the NE. Isn’t that how democracy works? You vote and the winner represents you.
If you think this article is a waste of your time, why are you wasting even more time posting about it.
Behind your backs, eh? Naughty, Indi, naughty.
“As for who represents the Sinhalese, I guess the GoSL represents everyone outside the NE. Isn’t that how democracy works? You vote and the winner represents you.”
You’re damn right about that. The Singala leaders (GoSL) represent the Singala people, that’s how democracy SHOULD be like. But that’s not the case, cause the Singala leaders who were elected by the Singala people are automatically representing the Tamil people as well. What kind of democrazy is that? In how many places around the world does this pratics take place? How about Europe, America, Australia? Nowhere!
Concerning who’s the representatives of the Tamil people, we will choose when the circumstances allow us to conduct a fair election, were Tamil people are allowed to choose their own leaders. But a fake democracy where the Singalese are the ones who choose our leaders doesn’t belong to anywhere. So, only the Tamil people can give you answer to that Question, cause if I, on my own or the Singalese for that matter did that, it won’t be democracy anymore. Hence the Singalese or anybody else have no say at all in this matter. Don’t waste our time.
Let the Tamils discuss who’s their leaders.
“The Singala leaders (GoSL) represent the Singala people, that’s how democracy SHOULD be like. But that’s not the case, cause the Singala leaders who were elected by the Singala people are automatically representing the Tamil people as well. What kind of democrazy is that? ”
Actually, the Sinhalese-majority GoSL was elected by Sinhalese, Tamils, Moors, Malays, and Burghers outside the North & East. The population of the North & East (mostly Tamils), decided not to participate, thereby putting their vote on the side of the Mahinda regime. When you don’t vote, you allow things to bypass you. That is ALSO how democracy works. So what are you complaining about? If the NE Tamils had voted, you would’ve had a GoSL more to your liking.
“In how many places around the world does this pratics take place? How about Europe, America, Australia? Nowhere!”
Actually, in all of the above. In all these countries, the majority is white Caucasian Christians, and the elected administrations reflect that majority, but also represent the minorities such as blacks, Asians, Arabs, etc. Do you feel things should be different in SL?
“Concerning who’s the representatives of the Tamil people, we will choose when the circumstances allow us to conduct a fair election, were Tamil people are allowed to choose their own leaders. ”
So until then are you happy to let the strongest rule you? I’m not being sarcastic, but would like to know what you think. For example, in the Eastern Province the TMVP is gaining strength while the LTTE is diminishing; so will you be OK with the TMVP representing the Eastern Tamils?
“But a fake democracy where the Singalese are the ones who choose our leaders doesn’t belong to anywhere.”
Well who would you like your leaders to be?
“Don’t waste our time.”
Since you have the time to post, I assume you are willing to spend the time. If not, don’t. No one’s asking you to answer, but I have the right to ask.
“Let the Tamils discuss who’s their leaders.”
So where is this discussion taking place?
I wasn’t sure if this was ignorance or spin, but sounded more like ignorance, so I thought I’ll spare a few minutes.
The Tamil boycott of the presidential election was to allow the Sinhalese to choose their leader and their future, without skewing the results and help elect a Sinhalese president, regardless of who that may have been. It had become accepted fact that no Sinhalese president will represent Tamil interests equally, so why be a part of that fake democrasy.
Hence the “let them decide who they want – a professed peace lover or a war monger”. Surprise, surprise…the Sinhalese chose a war monger. End of story. The Sinhalese don’t want peace. They love blood. They just want to kill Tamil children, rape 5-year old Tamil girls and fornicate with their own children in the southern beaches.
Me thinks the state of affairs is pretty clear. The Tamils quite simply have no alternative but to win this war and realize Tamil Eelam.
bullshit, im a tamil and my family in the wanni didnt boycott. they didn’t vote because they were told not to by the big bad boyz!!! so go to hell with your dumb ideas
Interesting theory, Ggg, about the LTTE’s reason for the boycott. An alternate possibility is that it was a way of telling both the Tamil & Sinhalese communities that the NE is not part of SL, and therefore needn’t participate in an election. Also, it’s possible that this was a way of ensuring that the NE Tamil population (particularly the younger generation) doesn’t experience the electoral process, thereby ensuring that they are less likely to demand a multi-party system in the unlikely event that the LTTE secures its Eelam.
Multi-party or two-party or no party for Tamil Eelam is not crucial issue for the Tamils at this stage. We have a war of liberation to fight and win first. Once that first hurdle is reached, we will worry about the rest. Don’t hurt your head over it. The Sinhalese are not really in any position to lecture us on party democracies. We will choose the right format for us for the right time and period. The Tamils will decide that when appropriate AFTER Eelam is achieved.
In other words, never?
You’ve fought for 25 years and you’ve stilll not got Eelam. It doesn’t even look like it’s close. After 25 years of banging your head against the wall, you need to be able to figure out when you need a drill. And it’s not my head that’s hurting.
You’ve also got to realise that the LTTE is the reason you haven’t got Eelam. Once the East is free of the LTTE it will have self rule. The North willl have to wait. But since you assume that the Tamils will wait (and presumably fight) forever, enjoy the stay.
You can bet your fake ass that all Tamils were told not to vote in that presidential election. That was what was called for. The reasons are as previous post.
You seem to have a problem with logic. You are spinning yourself into a muddle.
The war will go one till Eelam is achieved. We wouldn’t wish the fate of living with you lot on any hapless and defenseless minority – anywhere in the world. Atleast we have a defense – the Tamil Tigers. The problem with the types of you is, you like to believe that wars of liberation were started with a flip of a coin. Sorry, that not you is it? You are just the spin king.
Keep weaving it baby. At the very least it the Tamils are thankful it keeps you away from the 5 year old girls and guns. Or at least we hope so.
“Actually, in all of the above. In all these countries, the majority is white Caucasian Christians, and the elected administrations reflect that majority, but also represent the minorities such as blacks, Asians, Arabs, etc. Do you feel things should be different in SL?”
Well I agree that the elected governments in the Western countries represents everybody equally, and as a foreigner in a Western country, I’m delighted to have the privileges of living in a country that respects and actually represents me and my fellow Tamils over here. And I don’t think things needs to change in any way in any of these countries. But let me ask you a few questions about how the Singala Governments have “represented” the Tamil-speaking people although we account for more than 25% of the total population.
1. In what why did the Singala Government “Represent” the Tamil people when it enacted the “Singala ONLY” legislation that deprived the Tamils some of their most fundamental rights and prevented them from participating in the democratic process of the Sri Lankan Parliament? And what did the Tamils gain from this legislation enacted by those who should make sure that everybody was equally “represented”?
2. In what why did the Singala Government “represent” the Tamil People when it allowed anti-Tamil riots to take place and even supported it, thus killing and injuring thousands of Tamils and making hundred thousands homeless and leaving them scared to death of the Government’s mobs? And in the aftermath of the 1983-riot, how did the Singala Government “represent” the Tamil People when the leader of their government claimed that he was not “worried about the opinion of the Jaffna people,” and even admitted that he “cannot think about them†or â€about their lives, or of their opinion†about the Singala Government?
3. In what why does the Singala Government “represent” the Tamil people when it’s actually punishing us collectively by allowing its Singala ONLY Army to starve out the Tamil Population of Jaffna and Vaharai and bomb and kill civilians while claiming to “liberate” the Tamil People as a mean to “suppress” the LTTE? If they really wanted to “liberate” us from the LTTE shouldn’t they have attacked the LTTE instead of attacking Tamil civilians which they do so often? The 1995 massacre of about 600 Tamil youth falls into that category of “collective punishment” of Tamils.
4. And how about the P-TOMS? It was supposed to allow Tamils to rebuild their lives after the Tsunami, but instead the Singala Government chose to use the funds for a war “to liberate Tamils from the LTTE”, making hundred thousands of Tamils remain homeless although it has secured that 90% of its own Singala Population have received permanent housing.
The Singala Government does NOT and did NEVER represent anybody else than the Singala People. And certainly it NEVER will be able to “represent” Tamil People. The Singala Government killed nearly 100.000 of its own Singala Youth as they did not obey them. How can these Mad Dogs ever “represent†the Tamil People?
Yes, Sakthi, I agree that the Sinhalese-majority GoSL (it isn’t Sinhalese-only as you claim, since there are Moors & Tamils in it) hasn’t done very well in representing minorities, and the failings you’ve pointed out (Sinhala only, ’83, etc) fully justified the Tamil move to a military solution. HOWEVER, my comment which you’ve quoted was in response to your claim that majority govt doesn’t exist in the west. If what you really mean is that majority representation of the minorities is far fairer in the west, I’d agree with you. We should demand and push for mor democratic governance.
Going back to the LTTE decision to resume the military angle, and saying that is the ONLY solution is flawed. It’s time to recognise and acknowledge what has been achieved by the military struggle and decide the route forward. If you feel that terrorism/militancy is the only weapon left to you, then I’m afraid your leaders have failed you, and you should look for more imaginative ones.
And btw, it isn’t a Sinhalese-only Army. I myself am an ex-soldier, and I’m certainly not Sinhalese. My 10-man rifle section had eight Sinhalese, one Moor, and one Burgher. There were lots of other non-Sinhalese in my battalion, in spite of my regiment being considered one of the more ‘hard core’ units. Sure, the Army’s demographic isn’t representative of the SL population, but that’s only to be expected because of the ethnic nature of the war.
Murali thinks a vote for Mahinda in the last election was motivated by a desire for war. That’s a flaw in Murali’s argument. Actually most people outside the NE don’t vote on the policy on the war. They vote on cost of living. This has been proved time and time again through surveys conducted by reputed agencies like AC Nielsen and Survey Research Lanka. It is only in the NE that a solution to the conflict is a priority. The rest of the country is not affected enough to be bothered. This is why Murali’s claim that the war will go on until Eelam is achieved doesn’t bother me that much. So what? My life is great.
Pity about my countrymen in the North and East though… but then again, if they say the LTTE represents them, they must know what they are getting themselves into. So, screw them. It’s their funeral. Literally.