Prabhakaran’s Speech
Man of peace, next to his handiwork
Prabhakaran’s speech this year was whiny above all. He blames the Sri Lankan government for the resurgence of war when it was, in fact, a path that the LTTE chose. From February 2002 to 2006 the LTTE has committed 3,535 violations of the cease-fire to GoSL’s 169. The most common were child recruitment and disappearances. They assassinated Sri Lanka’s Foreign Minister at his home, prevented citizens of the North and East from voting, and cut off water to 30,000 farmers. They have also engaged in extortion of expatriates and assorted unsavories. I could understand Prabhakaran saying these brutalities were in the service of something. However, in his speech he portrays himself as a lily-white sun god while he has so much blood on his hands. Perhaps Tamils deserve a separate state. I don’t know. There is however, less chance of that when they are led by a despotic terrorist, a pioneer of child recruitment and suicide bombings, and paraiah to all nations of the world. He has taken a bad situation and made it much much worse, and yet he has the nerve to deny all responsibility.
Six years have passed since we dedicated ourselves to find a solution to the ethnic conflict through peace talks. In this long time span, has a solution been found to the burning Tamil national question? Was there any visible change in the mindset of the Sinhala leadership that continues to inflict unrelenting cruelty on the Tamil people?
In a word, yes. I’ll be the first to say that the Sri Lankan polity can be chauvinist bastards, but there is also a diversity of opinion and cooler heads seem to be winning out, even in the midst of terrorist attacks. According to Frederica Janz, ‘On March 9, former minister and UNP national organizer SB Dissanayake told a news conference that a war in the country will be inevitable if the government drags its feed on the national quesiton and insists on a solution within the unitary form of government.
He told journalists that the JVP and JHU were engaged in a futile hair-splitting, theorizing exercise insisting on retaining the so-called unitary character of the government when, in reality, the Sri Lankan government had already lost its unitary status with the devolution of power under the 13th amendment which provides for the Provincial Councils.’
The JVP and JHU are, also, no longer part of the governing coalition, which is now the SLFP and UNP. Are they saints, hell no, but that’s a big change from before. Sri Lanka also doesn’t kill people who dissent from the current state of things, so there is potential for even more change. It is pitiably slow, but like the US and Civil Rights, a change is going to come.The LTTE, however, has remained monolithic in its opposition to all dissent, killing any Tamils who raise their voices too high. Of course, the more bombs explode in Colombo, the more emboldened the Sinhala extremists get. I’m not saying that this in anyway justifies the de facto embargo on the North and East. All I am saying is that Prabhakaran knows this will be the reaction, yet he has still sent the suicide bombers. That may be his strategy, but to now complain is just appalling. You brought this on the North and East. I know you don’t let people there vote, but at least be honest with them.
The Sinhala government has unleashed a two pronged war, military and economic, on our people. Our people are subjected to unprecedented assaults. Arrests, imprisonment, and torture, rape and sexual harassment, murders, disappearance, shelling, aerial bombing, and military offensives are continuing unchecked. At the same time our people are subjected to an inhuman economic embargo on essential items including food and medicine.
The A9 is closed and that is bad. The TRO is shut down and cannot provide whatever tangential services it does. That is also bad. There is great suffering in the North and East, food and fuel shortages and worse. That is terrible and I wish the GoSL would do more about it. However, this shut-down comes in the midst of numerous suicide bombings in Colombo and attacks as far South as Galle. Almost weekly claymore mines are found entering the city and Sri Lanka is under attack. The LTTE also collects at least Rs 5 million per day from illegal tax on the A9, almost none of which goes to social service, the bulk going to weapons to make the situation worse. The TRO, too, was founded by the LTTE and it is questionable where the money goes. While the LTTE is attacking Sri Lanka the nation has clamped down, and there are consequences. You cannot attack a nation and expect them to become more open to you, yet Prabhakaran is still crying foul. The A9 was open before you deployed suicide bombers again. Either be honest with your people and say things are going to get worse before better, or don’t start the damn war again.
Even after the ceasefire, negotiations and the five years of patiently keeping peace, the dividends of peace have not reached our people. Instead our people are faced with unbearable burdens in their daily lives. Thousands of our people have been forced out of their homes and are languishing with disease and hunger in refugee camps. No one should expect that this Sinhala government which is denying food and medicine to our people to the extent of starving them would show compassion and give them their political rights.
Under the cease-fire the A9 was reopened and checkpoints in Colombo taken down. The Sri Lankan government still provides basic health and education services to the North and East, because the LTTE is purely a military outfit. Despite the fact that they do little to address the ‘basic problems’ of the North and East, they have illegally taxed and stolen 28% of the GDP of the North and East from 1996-2002 (Strategic Foresight). The North and East has the worst access to water, electricity, telecommunications and roads in the country, but that is not because GoSL prevents it. It is actually because the occupation by the LTTE prevents government services from reaching those areas, and because they take significant amounts off the top to buy more weapons.
The more suicide bombers the LTTE sends, the greater the military presence in the North and East. When the LTTE sends suicide attackers to Galle and on buses of Navy soldiers returning home, then the North and East get more isolated. When they kill Tamil dissidents and leaders in the streets of Colombo, you get more checkpoints. Perhaps this has a purpose, perhaps the goal of a separate state is worth it. However, denying that the LTTE is directly responsible for the decline of the North and East is simply dishonest.
The Sinhala nation is refusing to broaden its thinking and take a new approach. The Sinhala nation remains mislead by the mythical ideology of the Mahavamsa and remains trapped in the chauvinistic sentiments thus created. Unable to free itself from this mindset, it has adopted Sinhala Buddhist chauvinistic notions as its dominant national philosophy. This notion is spread in its schools, universities and even its media. The domination of this Sinhala Buddhist chauvinism is preventing its students, intellectuals, and writers from stepping out of and thinking free from its domination. This, unfortunately, is preventing the Sinhala nation from undertaking a genuine attempt at resolving the Tamil national question in a civilized manner.
By civilized does he mean abducting children, sending suicide bombers, and murdering dissidents like Kethesh, EPDP members, and Lakshman Kadirgamar? Tamil Eelam is built on a mythical Tamil state as well, rather than the real island we’re trying to hold together. There is a lot of Sinhala Buddhist chauvanism, I know. But there is also a diversity of opinion in Sri Lanka, and statements from the government are often measured and just. The actions may be very different, but Sri Lanka at least does not behave with absolute tyranny and brutality towards dissidents. If you want to resolve things in a civilized manner, why didn’t you let Kethesh live? Or for that matter, Neelan or Kadirgamar? Why did you kill Rajiv Gandhi and Rajani Thiranagama? Why did you force the Muslims out of Jaffna and ethnically cleanse numerous villages for your Tamil State? Or at the very least, why don’t you try to work things out democratically and let people vote? Also, who are you to lecture about chauvinism and a rigid national philosophy when you literally kill all dissidents and advocate a one-party state?
During the six years when we kept peace, we were sincere in our efforts.
To this I need only add that the the Sri Lanka Monitoring Mission is accepted by both sides to monitor violations of the cease fire agreement. From February 2002 to 2006 the LTTE has committed 3,535 violations of the cease-fire to GoSL’s 169.
The Wickremasinghe government that refused to solve the humanitarian problems facing our people, secretly worked to marginalize our movement on the world stage. Even before setting up a working administrative structure in the Tamil homeland, it conducted donor conferences to obtain aid for the south. By failing to facilitate our participation in the donor conference held in Washington, it marginalized and humiliated our movement. As a result we were forced to stay away from the Tokyo conference. The Wickremasinghe regime did not stop with this. It plotted to trap our freedom movement in an ‘international safety net’ and destroy us.
The LTTE has done enough to marginalize itself on its own. The assassination of Rajiv Gandhi was a start. The extortion and threats to expatriate Tamils is another. The pioneering use of suicide bombers is another welcome addition to the world. To quote Janz again, ‘In late 2005 Human Rights Watch claimed the Tigers had launched an aggressive and systematic fund-raising drive in Canada and parts of Europe to pressure individuals and business owners to give money for what they called the “final war”… People were told that if they did not pay the requested sum, they would not be able to return to Sri Lanka to visit family members. Others were warned that they would be dealt with or taught a lesson, the rights group said’.
Furthermore, the LTTE is not a nation or an elected government. They are an armed force that spends the vast majority of its money on salaries for their leaders, arms, and international propaganda and lobbying efforts (Strategic Foresight). To have them sit at the same table at a donor conference makes about as much sense as seating Al Qaeda. And, by ‘international safety net’ I think Prabhakaran is referring to the recent banning of the LTTE by Canada and the EU. The LTTE is also banned by the US, UK and more. Now, either those nations could all be wrong, or Prabhakaran could have been posturing again. If you want to use terrorism to achieve and end, then tell your people what the consequences are. Just don’t act surprised that nobody likes you.
It was at this time that the Sinhala nation elected Rajapakse as its new President. Like the Sinhala leaders of the past, he too is putting his hopes in a military solution.
Just to note, Prabhakaran voted for Rajapakse as well. On election day, despite prior promises, the LTTE banned all citizens in occupied areas from voting. The people in the North and East were polling overwhelmingly towards Ranil, and could have swung the election. However, as DBS Jeyaraj reported, “While posters and leaflets calling for a boycott were widely circulated a systematic campaign of violence and terror also commenced prior to the poll. A series of explosions took place. In Jaffna grenades were thrown at five EPDP party offices on the eve of polls. Grenades and bombs were also thrown at Police patrols, army sentry posts, vehicles etc. A youth was tortured and beaten to death publicly at the Hindu College grounds. In Batticaloa a sub – post mistress who allegedly refused to hand over polling cards was brutally hacked to death.. A climate of terror prevailed.
This terror continued from the early hours of the morning on election day. Bombs were thrown at Govt offices, polling booths, security posts and vehicles. Tyres and palm fronds were set on fire at key junctions and roads. Roadblocks were set up.Youths roamed streets looking out for potential voters. The LTTE motor cycle squad patrolled roads. People on the roads were threatened. Many old people going out to vote were assaulted. Vehicles including buses were stoned or set on fire. Civilian voters and officials were injured in deliberate grenade attacks on polling stations. A few people returning after voting were set upon. One man had his inked finger cut off. The message was unmistakably clear – Dont vote.”
However, Prabhakaran still cynically exploits the elections and complains that the same time. This final war is a strategy, funded, decided and voted on by Prabhakaran himself. And yet he lies that his hands are clean.
The Rajapakse regime hopes to decide the fate of the Tamil nation using its military power. It wants to occupy the Tamil land and then force an unacceptable solution on the Tamils. Due to this strategy of the Rajapakse regime, the CFA has become defunct. The Rajapakse regime, by openly advocating attacks on our positions, has effectively buried the CFA. The Rajapakse regime’s attacks have expanded from land to sea and air. It has given a free hand to the paramilitary groups to kill at will. It has occupied Mavilaru and Sampur blatantly breaking the terms of the CFA.
Again, in terms of the CFA agreement, the LTTE has committed 3,535 violations of the cease-fire to GoSL’s 169. In fact, the LTTE assassination of Kadirgamar and cutting off of water to 30,000 farmers preceded any military escalation. Again, maybe that was your plan Prabhakaran, but don’t feign surprise.
How could the peace talks move forward when the peace delegation is made up of people who proclaim that they will wage war and hold peace talks at the same time? How can trust be built? How can peace be arrived at like this?
Right back at you. If you are sincere about peace then stop violating the cease-fire and attacking Sri Lanka. Become a legitimate political party and participate in the hard slog of democracy. If, however, you choose war, extort funds for war, recruit children for war and assassinate leaders in war, at least have the dignity to stop complaining. I know the GoSL sucks and has sucked, but it can at least move forward in a democratic and diverse way. The LTTE under Prabhakaran, however, seems committed in war and even worse, in absolute denial of the destructive path he has chosen.
Good points, Indi. However, Prabaha & co use the Heroes Day speech more as a policy statement as well as THE biggest propoganda broadcast of the year. I doubt heart-to-heart honesty to the Tamil people was on the agenda, if it ever has been in the past. The fact that this was Balasingham’s last Heroes Day speech, plus the fact that Prabha had to prerecord the speech in hiding, meant that there was very little liklihood of introspection. This was always expected to be a hardline statement.
Indi you’re a joker…
the LTTE become a democratic party?
why???
so that they can be marginalized and out voted in your “democracy”…???
with out the LTTE there would be no Tamils on the island
they would all be speaking Sinhala
and the WHOLE country would be “integrated”… meaning that the colonization of the NorthEast which started in the 1950′s would have made the WHOLE country 72% sinahlese, 17% Tamil 8% Muslim, etc…
EACH district would have that break down and the Tamils would be minorities in their own areas and would not have any political representation…
the LTTE has prevented this…
they are the protectors of the tamil people
“they are the protectors of the tamil people ”
Er… don’t you mean the “protectors of the Northeastern Tamils”? Oh, no, wait a minute, you mean “the protectors of the Northeastern Tamils not protected by the GoSL”? Nononono, you mean the “protectors of the Tamil People in the Northeast who aren’t protected by the GoSL or the TMVP”, right? Or do you mean they are “the protectors of the several thousand poor Northeastern Tamils stuck behind LTTE lines”?
david you only addressed one part of peace’s post…
what about the rest of it…?
Yes, so what about it?
why don’t you join the SL Army again you dumb bitch…
“why don’t you join the SL Army again you dumb bitch…”
david, you have to admit, there’s no counter-argument to that sort of incisive logic. well done piss, sorry peace – good point, well made. prick.
wow, just mal makes an almost logical statement…
some where there is a pig flying…
Hon.V Pirapaharan has highlighted in his speech, the ground realities facing the Tamil population in Sri Lanka. The actions of the state aparatuses perpetrating the gross violations of even basic human rights is clear for all to see in pictures still & moving. What is not so surprising is that this has been going on for the last 50 years. Are we allowed to say ‘enough is enough’ or should we endure this gruesome treatment for the next 50 years. The USA & SL Govt think we ought to suffer the Rapes, the Abductions, the Starvation, the Ariel bombings, the Looting, the extra Judicial killings, the Medical starvation, the Education starvation, the constant shelling etc, etc for the next 50 years. —– I can go on. But if we do even the insects(lowest in the food chain) would not respect us. So now, USA did not give Hans Blick the extra month he wanted to find the non existent WMDs in IRAQ. So they went in with all guns blazing and are today responsible for nearly 700,000 Iraqi dead. But they want us to get round the table yet again to talk. Sorry Uncle Sam, ‘You Haven’t Seen Nothin’ Yet. Good Day to you.
“The JVP and JHU are, also, no longer part of the governing coalition, which is now the SLFP and UNP”
Bullshit – the MOU with the UNP has yielded nothing – another hogwash. MR still hasnt abandoned the JVP or the JHU publicly.
Both sides want war – let’s stop flirting and get this shit over once and for all.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/7598_1841937,000500020002.htm
November 12, 2006
In an interview for Sunday Leader, former President Chandrika Bandaranaike Kumaratunga has said that she made mistakes in her presidency: the forging of an alliance with the (anti-Tamil)JVP and the subsequent dissolution of parliament (of pro-peace Ranil Wickremasinghe) in 2004 were among the three most critical errors she had made in her decade long Presidency.
She refused to spell out the third and the “single biggest mistake” but said that it was currently relevant and that it would “reverberate for generations.”
Who isn’t shuddering???????????????
Well. In her defence, she didn’t want to do any of those things. I think the 3rd and the single biggest mistake she’s talking about was allowing Mahinda to be the PM and then the president.
The reality is, most of the people disagree with Chandrika. They rejected Ranil and his “pro-peace?” policies and the SLFP-JVP coaltion had a landslide victory. Chandrika is not the queen of Sri Lanka. She was a powerless president who lost her mandate in 2001. None of these so called mistakes were in her hands in the first place. If someone thinks that this admission of hers is a vindication of their opposition to them at the time, that’s stupid. It wasn’t her choice to do any of those things in the first place, and she was forced to it because most of the people in Sri Lanka wanted these changes.
What a silly, childish and naive rant by Indrajit. LTTE’s doing exactly what it should do in order to protect itself from further disintegration and ultimate annihilation. This is what anyone would do if they were in LTTE’s position. This is what anyone would say if they were Prabhakaran.
I always find it amusing how these people are so outraged and surprised at the obvious disparity between what the GOSL and LTTE say and what they actually do. What they say is just PR, what they do is what they must do in order to survive. Everything is guided by realpolitik.
Ultimately it comes down to who’s side you want to take. As long as there’s politico-military parity and equilibrium between the parties, GOSL would never agree legalise LTTE’s rule in the Northeast (through an ISGA like mechanism) and LTTE would never give up arms and agree to democracy or pluralism in North and East. Negotiations will never succeed because there’s no incentive to either party to concede and they know that such a compromise would mean definite, absolute and permanent loss of control of the North and East. Neither LTTE nor GOSL is stupid enough to agree to something like that.
So yeah, I can totally understand the rationale and logic behind the LTTE’s actions. They make perfect sense to anyone who knows what the LTTE wants. It’s hard to even blame the LTTE for it. It does what it has to do and anyone who finds it hard to understand why LTTE (or GOSL) doesn’t stop doing these things and agree to peace (=self destruction), they are bloody idiots.
Look, Prabha’s speech was just as absurd as any speech from the government camp blaming all the country’s woes on LTTE terrorism. The way I see it, both sides are to blame. I hope you begin to see that not all the country’s problems are the fault of the LTTE’s, and that there’s a lot the South can do to change the situation. Of course the South will say, you stop the shooting first. And the LTTE will echo back the same message. That’s what’s happening now. It’s a pity you are unable to take a detached view of the whole thing and avoid taking sides. I’ll accept that the situation in the country and the prevalent tensions don’t provide the sort of atmosphere for calm, impartial deliberation and that even the good ones like yourself can never insulate yourselves from the seething anger and resentment that seems to dominate public discourse.
I’m on the Sri Lankan side. I support Tamil rights as something Sri Lankan, and human. I do not support the LTTE in any way. I do criticize the government but I do not think these are equal sides with equal blame. I don’t find it a huge intellectual leap to condemn an armed organization that recruits children, kills dissidents (including many people I admire) and deploys suicide bombers. I do not take their side. I am for Sri Lanka.
Sri Lanka doesn’t blame all its problems on the LTTE. The country develops apace. The stock market keeps going and the latest ‘State of the Economy’ I skimmed doesn’t mention the war at all (oddly enough). The country can do a lot to bring peace on its own, which is why most of my posts are focused in. This post however, is a piece by piece criticism of Prabhakaran and I’d invite you to take that apart if you can. The LTTE has offers nothing but whining and a crippled economy and land, held together by brutal terror. Of course I don’t support them. I am for a united, democratic and free Sri Lanka.
indi… the GoSL of does the same things and has done the same things to the Tamils… the GoSL is worse than the LTTE because they are (just barely) a state and states are held to a higher standard…
the LTTE arose BECAUSE OF THE GOSL and sinhala people’s behavior…
the GoSL killed and kills tamil leaders and dissidents
the GoSL recruits children
what’s your big problem with suicide bombers???
if the LTTE were given Kfir bombers they wouldn’t use them…
also, how was the Charge of the Light Brigade any different that the Black Tigers???
they both sacrificed their lives for their country…
and indi… the thing that annoys me the most about you is that you know NOTHING of the history of this country or the REAL situation in Tamil Eelam…
have you ever met a member of the LTTE…? or do you just believe the propaganda that the GoSL feeds ya…
grow up… ;)
It’s a pity you don’t have a grasp of ANY history, Wow.
The GoSL doesn’t recruit children.
The difference between the Light Brigade and the Black Tigers is that the former was sent forward due to a miscommunication, and didn’t charge with the idea of killing themselves.
I know the it’s convenient to try and hold the state to a higher standard because it is one, but that’s a notion that’s now rapidly losing its lustre within the international community. We saw a couple of decades in which anyone fighting the state was seen as a freedom fighter, but it’s rapidly reverting. It’s also unrealistic as it’s clear to anyone with half a brain that the UN has been castigating the LTTE far more than the GoSL of late. Ever wondered why that is? Wow.
Come on. I’m not going to let you score rhetorical points. We all want the best for Sri Lanka. Or at least that’s what we all claim we want.
I think you’re confusing issues here. The issue is the ethnic conflict, and within those parameters, your position that the LTTE is more to blame for the current situation is sad. I’m not in the mood for detailing a list of government actions that demonstrate their equal culpability with regard to this issue.
I’m a little amused by the argument that the areas within the control of the LTTE are crippled. The war has crippled the NorthEastern economy. If the war is the fault of the LTTE, then the LTTE have crippled it. If the war is the fault of both, then both have crippled the economies of people both claim to represent.
I have no problem with condemning the LTTE. I do have problem with the suggestion that the LTTE deserve more condemnation than the state, which you seem to believe. I’ll respect your view if that’s what you believe, but making such blanket comments about culpability with regard to a very complicated and emotive issue should surely be preceded by some sort of analysis of the faults on both sides. Given the absence of this balanced approach and a willingness to look at the faults of ‘your side’ and consider the part it plays in prolonging the conflict, your position seems more like ideological rhetoric.
what’s your big problem with suicide bombers???
if the LTTE were given Kfir bombers they wouldn’t use them (suicide bombers)…
indi…. please explain why you removed the posts on the histroy of sri lanka… they were on topic and were relevant…
why are you editing history???
what are you afraid of…
I sent that guy a mail. Pannaboke I think.
I obviously allow diverse comments, but 9 copy/paste comments in a row is just spamming. Was edited for quantity not quality.
so then leave a few up…
but to completely erase them all is cowardice
you and your little friends have no response to actual academic thought and so you delete
coward!
This is degenerating, wow, so try to stay on topic. Feel free to consider me a coward. I write under my own name and endure much worse abuse, so I don’t really consider myself that. Comments are generally just that, comments, not text copied and pasted from other sources. Normally I’d let it go, but 9 copied comments in a row just messes up the flow of the thread. I didn’t read them all, I just took it as someone spamming my site and deleted them in a batch. I really don’t care what the content was. I don’t want people posting 9 comments in a row and hijacking the conversation that’s going on. That’s my prerogative as the blog owner. I sent him a private mail so he knows, so I think I followed basic Netiquette. I think I defended myself enough on that so think what you will. I don’t really care what you post, just don’t fuck with my layout.
Aadhavan, I have to agree with David on this. The GoSL is a bloody mess and I actually spend the vast majority of my posts criticizing them. They are, however, a nation state which follows rules. They don’t kill dissidents, recruit children or practice what are considered terrorist tactics as a matter of policy. GoSL also provides social services like health and education, even to the North and East, which the LTTE doesn’t do.
As per the LTTE being responsible for the economic deprivation in the North and East, if those areas were under government control they’d have access to proper health, educational and administrative services. And stuff like tsunami and development aid, things which donors are more likely to trust to a nation state than a terrorist organization. The LTTE are forcing the people of the North and East to make huge sacrifices that they wouldn’t have to had they pursued a political situation, or at least not killed moderates like Neelan. Maybe the sacrifice is worth it, I don’t know, but they made this land a warzone by trying to carve it forcibly out of greater Sri Lanka.
I’d like to reiterate that I think Tamil’s have very serious concerns, maybe even justifying a separate state. I don’t agree with the latter, but I’d be open to voting on it. However, I believe that the LTTE’s descent into absolute brutality is counterproductive. Note that I’m not saying unjustified (though I don’t believe violence is ever justified). All I’m saying is that it’s counterproductive.
What do you mean the GoSL don’t do these things as a matter of policy. Whose policy, what policy? These things are happening and if it’s not state policy, where are the prosecutions. Where is the attempt to bring these atrocities under check. The armed forces are just as bad as the LTTE in the use of violence. Just because its not in the Chinthanaya doesn’t mean that there’s no policy. I find this distinction between policy and reality a little tenuous. In any case, the crime is not in the policy. It’s in the commission and the ommission of others in not stopping the commission.
“GoSL also provides social services like health and education, even to the North and East, which the LTTE doesn’t do.”
Simply not true. Both provide, but the quality is shit.
“As per the LTTE being responsible for the economic deprivation in the North and East, if those areas were under government control they’d have access to proper health, educational and administrative services.”
This is just a figment of your imagination. Jaffna is under army control and it’s a bloody mess.
On the tsunami. Come on indi. All the foreign donors wanted the PTOMS deal. Yes, with a terrorist organisation. It was the government that scuttled it. The judicial arm to be more precise. Today a lot of the foreign donors are forfeiting on their promises because the government was not willing to share tsunami aid with the people of the NorthEast.
This is not about whether it was worth it or not. Or whether it was counter productive. It’ about acknowledging that both parties share the blame and it’s sad that you can’t come to accept this.
the LTTE does provide health and education in the areas under its control…
“if those areas were under government control they’d have access to proper health, educational and administrative services”
this statement shows how little you know about the NE… the GoSL DOES NOT provide these things in the govt controlled areas or the LTTE controlled areas… i don’t know where you get your info… call the batti general hospital and ask them if they have the allotted cardre of doctors… do you know that these is only ONE psychaitrst in the NE…? ONE…
the LTTE provide what they can BUT THEY ARE FIGHTING A WAR… they are not currently a government and so are NOT YET fully capable of provide ALL the services of a government… THEY WILL WHEN THERE IS PEACE and they have a tax base and World Bank, ADB, and other multi-lateral assistance…
The donors DO TRUST the LTTE – MUCH MORE THAN THE GOSL… there is no corruption, unlike the GoSL, in the LTTE…
the donors FORCED chandrika to sign the P-TOMS with the LTTE… they were ready to give money to the LTTE for tsunami reconstruction…
WHO STOPPED IT…??? i think you know the answer to that… the GoSL supreme court on the bidding of the JVP… yes the supreme court you criticize for imprisoning SB dissanayakke… http://www.indi.ca/2004/12/sb-dissanayake-free-speechjail/
so, the GoSL is the only that is causing the suffering and the inability of the LTTE to provide services… AS DOES THE gosl THE LTTE can only do what is possible with international funding…
if the donors withdrew their money you’d be on the first flight back to canada because this country would collaspe…
by the way all the other donors wanted the LTTE in DC… it is only the USA who stopped them because of the listing… which by the way was suspended yesterday by the Federal District court in LA…
NICE!!!
wow. agree and disagree.
The listing wasn’t suspended. The judgement called into question the arbitrary listing by the administration. However, what we are seeing is the move of the US, led by the judiciary and now the legislature hopefully, to a more wholistic understanding of the problem it calls terrorism. I think Nadarajah v Alberto Gonzales and the present case are demonstrative of the shift away from this right wing let’s kill all the terrorist scum kind of thinking.
Also, the international community don’t trust the LTTE. There are many reasons for this. However, again what you are seeing is the international community becoming more and more tough on the government. I don’t think the present administration is going to get away with all of this for too long. I was in India a few days ago and it was common knowledge there that Mahinda has been summoned for a meeting to discuss what’s happening. In fact, some people have started whispering things about ‘sanctions’ in international diplomatic circles. This was reported in the Sri lankan media.
As per the LTTE on public services, I think I’ve addressed this elsewhere. It is simply and provably false ‘Both provide, but the quality is shit,’ as Aadhavan says. The quality is shit, but those services are provided by GoSL, often with LTTE cadres telling the government agent what to do, but not doing it. The LTTE has chased out military and judicial government services from their areas, but not medical and educational public servants. I’ve spoken with people from the Health and Social Services ministries and they definitely admit that the service is shit, but that’s because there is limited freedom of movement and all sorts of other drawbacks from being in occupied territory. However, social services are still government. I’ve read very partisan reports supporting the LTTE that still say the same. If you’re going to say that something is ‘simply not true’, please cite some evidence.
The Point Pedro Institute issues the only functional economic reports I know of on the North and East, and this is what he had to say in his tsunami funding/corruption working paper.
and this from his working paper on economic revival,
To act like a terrorist organization controlling 15% of the NE population deserves parity with a democratically elected government is intellectual folly. It’s like saying the JVP is an equal to the Sri Lankan state. The policy/reality distinction is important as well. If disappearances are policy then it means they happen (say) 95% of the time. That’s your policy. If your policy is more humane but corrupt in practice that means they’ll happen like 5-10% of the time. That’s a random number, but it’s less than the near 100% you get when depravity is policy. The distinction is important. The LTTE is depraved as a matter of policy.
what is the point pedro institute..???
as i said… there’s a war on…
in a time of peace there will be better services…
the history and de facto policy of the GoSL in the NE since independance and currently is to provide lesser services and less resources to the people of the NE…
the GoSL could does not provide adequate services in the GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED AREAS… why is this…?
you and david conveinently ignor parts of the arguement that you can not refute…
also, your logic is flawed by your politics… similar to the conservative parties the world over… you are the Sri Lanka version of the Republicans or the Tories… and we all know what their policies on minorities are…
and your praise of the GoSL public servants over the LTTE is laughable…
have you experienced a sri lankan govt department of employee… you ever walk into a GoSL office and see 20 people sitting at their desks reading papers…
the LTTE DO provide some services, but as i stated… they are fighting a war…
have you experienced a sri lankan govt department of employee… you ever walk into a GoSL office and see 20 people sitting at their desks reading NEWSpapers…
This is a question of productivity. Please leave it out of this debate. Idiot.
no it is a sign of corruption and people getting being given jobs for political patronage… indi was lauding the GoSL…
those people are the GoSL…
you’re the idiot… and your girlfriend is [wtf is wrong with you? try to keep the debate borderline civil, to keep whatever shed of credibility you have left]
Sophist, you’re fucking Ouch’s mum????? Damn, you get around, dude! You should’ve done it ten years ago, so that Ouch would have been born with brains. Ah well, better late than never.
The LTTE run a rural healthcare network. Every village has a heath worker who is generally a cadre and then you get a more high powered team that deals with the more complicated cases. In addition, the TRO and other Tamil organizations help a lot. Sure, the government pays for salaries of the government employees in LTTE areas. It seems to work well for both the government and the LTTE. I’m not contending this, neither am i saying that the LTTE shouldn’t be taking government money. Of course with all the international handouts the government is in a better position to provide these services. The question is, does the government do enough? and the answer is no. Does the LTTE do enough? No.
You said if disappearances were policy they would happen 95% of the time. 95% out of what and how is it that the LTTE does it 95% and the GoSL, 5%. Are these imaginary statistics and what are they in relation to?
Those were illustrative figures, as per the ‘say’. The point is that policy is something you do (almost all of the time). Mistakes happen, but a policy of brutality is far worse.
Neil DeVotta, Illiberalism and ethnic conflict in Sri Lanka, Journal of Democracy, Volume 13, Number 1, January 2002
[Do Not Post Long Hyperlinks Please]
The cancer that eats at Sri Lanka’s political life is ‘’ethnic outbidding’’: the auction-like process whereby Sinhalese politicians strive to outdo one another by playing on their majority community ‘s fears and ambitions. While ethnic outbidding may have originally been directed against the Tamils, its pernicious influence and illiberal consequences have now affected the entire island. Reversing this trend will require key people and institutions to commit to long-term, near-revolutionary reforms.
This is an attempt to hide the truth by cheaply analysing the speach and giving it some credibility by sideling the SL govt simultaneously.
There are too many flaws here.
First of all the assumption that vast majority of Tamils do not support the LTTE is fundementally flawed. You are kidding yourself. The photos of Pongu Tamil in Jaffna and around the world disproves govt propaganda that Tamils are forced to support the LTTE at gunpoint. More importantly in the 2001 and 2004 elections the Tamils overwhelmingly and democratically voted for the LTTE as their representatives through the TNA. Also you are fooling yourself to suggest that the LTTE forced 750 000 Tamil civilians living in Jaffna not to vote. That is army controlled area where 40 000 Sinhala soldiers run their writ among the Tamil population. The fact is the Tamil population wanted to show their support to the LTTE while at the same time showing that Tamils don’t want to belong to the Sri Lankan state anymore. After wasting 6 years of peace all Sinhala leaders have proved beyond doubt that they will not give Tamils fair share and all the Tamil peace doves who thought so before are now firmly backing the LTTE.
The SL govt:
1) Not vacating homes, temples, schools, fishing areas the govt has violated the ceasefire 200 000 times.
2) By arming and assisting EPDP, PLOTE and Karuna
3) By the army has been acussed by UN and US Human Righst Watch of forced child soldier recruitment of Tamils.
4) The govt has killed of many Tamil democratically elected leaders who the Tamils were fond off. e.g Kumar Ponnampalam, Joseph Pararajasingham, Chandra Nehru, Kousalyan, Vanniayasingam, Raviraj,
5) Journalists like Sivaram, BBC Nimalrajan, many others including Uthayan reporters
6) By dumping the ISGA proposals and wasting the time by dissolving parliament innumerable times to fool Tamils and waste time.
7)Using the courts to prevent sharing Tsunami aid.
8) Using the aid pledged to rebuild the souths economy.
9) Leaving hundreds of thousnads of Tamils to languish in refugee camps and in a political limbo
10) Unleashing a terror wave in the north and east since December 2005 in which several thousands Tamil civilains have been abducted and shot dead or gone missing.
Together with many more important and valid reasons the Tamil population in the north and east as well as in the Diaspora abroad, including myself, were sick are tired of the whole fiasco. The vast majority of Tamils spent the whole of 2006 organsising and rallying in their thousands in capitals around the world in open support of the LTTE. Just look at the photos. 25 000 in Hyde Park on a hot summer working day shouting the LTTE leaders name and holding up his photo. Several thousand more in Canada and all across Europe.
Please don’t cheat yourself by saying the LTTE have to follow democratic means. They have done so in the last 6 years via the TNA and what did we get in return, a hail of bullets and lack of concern fom the international community. In 1977 Tamils democratically voted for Tamil Eelam. The LTTE is implementing that Tamil decision.
Oonly when the borders of Tamil Eelam are secure will I consider advocating democracy in Tamil Eelam. Traitors are being paid to hoodwink others with their double talk. You can’t deny that during world war 2 that Britain and US did not practise torture their own people to protect the integrity of Britain or US from Nazi invaders. Tamils don’t want self serving traitors udermining the integrity of our Tamil Eelam homeland. We are the only one who give it integrity and sovereignity. Its our historical homeland.
The US saying that LTTE are terrorist doesn’t mean anything. You have to take it with a pinch of salt. In 1780′s George Washington and the minute men, fighting for American Independence, were also considered Terrorists by Britain, but now George Washington is the father of a nation. So why double standards when it comes to Tamils war for independence. Hypocracy?
At the end of the day what you are are failing to realise is that the vast majority of Tamils support the LTTE and their decision this year. In our eyes everything said by our national leader Mr V. Prapaharan was correct. I am not a racist. I have Sinhalese friends. I like to consider myslef a liberal. But this is not about some Tamil – Sinhala harmony of living in Colombo. This is about a whole Tamil nation in the north and east, undergoing untold harhsip and yearning for their own traditional land back so that they can decide our own political, cultural and economic future without suppression from the Sinhala majority. This island never completely belonged to them. They can keep what was historically theirs and Tamils will keep what is historically ours.
Future friendhip among our nations can develop as long as territorial borders are maintained. Why? Because history cannot be allowed to repeat where the majority always decide and supress the Tamils.
Sinhala people please let us go. We are sick and tired of the occupying Sinhala army. Lets finish this off peacfully by YOU taking the courage to pressure YOUR government to remove ALL Sinhala armed forces from Tamil Eelam WITHOUT having to spill blood.
Generally, per your comments about ’200,000 CFA violations’, the response is pretty simple. Both sides have given the SLMM power to rule on cease-fire agreements. From February 2002 to 2006 the LTTE has committed 3,535 violations of the cease-fire to GoSL’s 169. That is, the LTTE has committed 20 times as many CFA violations.
Parades and rigged elections are the calling cards of tyrants, but they are not a democratic vote. Also, your eagerness to punish traitors is very scary to people who simply think differently. Finally, please don’t compare this to the American Revolution. The Americans declared war, declared their rights as free men, and fought for them without slaughtering innocents in London or knocking off the King of France (Gandhi). They weren’t fighting for a dictatorship under George Washington, they were fighting for freedom.
Oh, so when the armed forces go around killing school kids, killing or turning a blind eye to the killing of MP’s, bombing hospitals, assisting in the recruitment of children and permitting death squads in white vans, it’s just a mistake. When the LTTE does the same things, it’s because they are depraved. I see. It’s all very clear now.
All of the above, Aadhavan, were also done by the British Army in WW2 (except the death squads didn’t have white vans). Would you therefore say that it was British policy to do the above? There is a difference between actions and the policies that drive such actions. A policy will entail far greater crimes numerically (as we see with LTTE targetting).
you are naive to think that all policies are stated in a party or govt’s platform…
these are unstated policies that are not provided to the media or public….
but they are none the less policies…
So what you’re saying is that if there isn’t a shred of evidence to show that a certain policy exists, it still does exist under the premise that it’s a secret? Tell me, do you still watch the X-Files now that Molder’s dead, in the hope that the aliens will bring him back?
I don’t know about the Brits, but the Americans did wipe out entire Japanese towns and villages. Even the British are said to have committed a number of atrocities like you said they did. I heard McNamara comment in the documentary “the Fog of War” that an American officer had said, “we better win this war, or we’re all going to be tried as war criminals.” So my response to your comment is “so what?”
I’m not convinced that the LTTE atrocities are quantitatively or qualitatively greater than the atrocities perpetrated by the armed forces. If that is the only way of determining whether a policy exists. i would suggest that the punishment of wrongdoers would be a pretty good way of signalling that the actions were aberrations.
Your answer to my question of “do you think this was British policy?” is “so what?”?
OK, the GoSL hasn’t charged enough people with committing atrocities, accepted. Can you point me to a SINGLE instance of the LTTE charging a cadre with committing an atrocity? Indi has already given you a breakdown of the CFA violations, which show just where the policy of violation lies. The LTTE has a policy of DELIBERATELY targetting civilians and civilian infrastructure. You may say that there’s no such policy because such a policy hasn’t been declared, but we deduce there is one because of the contiuous actions. There is no such continuity of action by the GoSL. If there is, please point it out.
The LTTE don’t attack people for fun. Neither do the armed forces. But when they think it’s to their advantage to target civilians, or when they just want to retaliate, both attack civilians on the other side of the ethnic divide. Every massacre by the LTTE you cite can be countered with a massacre perpetrated by the armed forces. It’s only the suicide bombers and the airforce bombings that the other side has been unable to copy. These are all deducible through the continuous actions of both sides.
I don’t know of any LTTE cadres who were pulled up for atrocities, and that’s why policy or no policy, they are responsible for the actions there cadres have committed.
it might have been British policy. I don’t know. What does it matter.
So you’re saying that an act proves it is part of a policy? That’s silly, and you know it, machang.
I didn’t say anything about massacres, I talked about deliberate targetting of civilians and civil infrastructure — bombs in crowded trains, the Central Bank attack, the Kolonnawa attack, the killings of Gandhi, Kadiragama, and so many other civil leaders, etc. This continuity of action proves the policy. Can you show me such a continuity of action by the GoSL. And I mean DELIBERATE targetting. Pointing out a refugee camp that was shelled accidentally or a church that was bombed because it was used by the Tigers won’t cut it.
without even going into the distant past, just the very recent ones. The killing of the 5 kids in trinco, the killings of the school kids in vavuniya, the massacre of the aid workers in muttur, the pesalai church massacre of the refugees, the massacre of the family in mannar, the allapiddy masscare, the daily abductions and killings in jaffna and to some extent in colombo, the attacks and killing of journalists and politicians – what more do you want. I’ve left out all aerial bombardments here because you’ll claim the benefit of the doubt for the forces due to lack of proximity. However, I’m convinced not all the civilian targets attacked by the kfirs and associated craft were ‘accidents’. Seems to be either a pattern of targetting or of unchecked brutality.
Indi, I’m a little surprised you’re pushing this numerical argument about CFA violations. The numbers simply do not reflect the nature of the violations. Even the hoisting of an LTTE flag in GoSL territory constitutes a CFA violation. You said the majority of violations were disappearances and killings. I’ve heard that the majority of violations were either the hoisting of flags or the carrying of weapons by the LTTE in GoSL territory. The LTTE argument was that after Karuna, it just wasn’t safe for them to go unarmed in GoSL territory to carry out their political work.
On the other hand, the refusal of the government forces to give back to the people of Jaffna the prime coastal land that has been taken for military camps was registered as only one ceasefire violation. There are some 200,000 people displaced due to the HSZ I think. The taking of Sampur, also just one violation. The supporting of paramilitaries is again a continuing violation, but numerically not significant. So I hope you’ll begin to see that the numbers game, while it is attractive to Keheliya and the like is not an accurate arbiter on the degree of culpability of the two sides. It’s just a record, it all depends on how you interpret the information.
This is public information, you might want to look it up before you make provably false claims. The LTTE Cease-Fire violations are, in order
1. Child Recruitment (1803)
2. Abduction of Adults (595)
3.Harassment (248)
4. Abduction of Children (212)
5. Measures to restore normalcy (ie, flag hoisting) (166)
The GoSL violations are
1. Harassment (68)
2. Hostile acts against civilian population (13)
3. Measures to restore normalcy (10)
4. Restriction of movement (10)
5. Occupation of private property (8)
I also see nothing wrong with data or numerical arguments, especially when these numbers are agreed upon by both sides. I notice that many commenters love to poo-poo data and recorded facts, but without them we’re left completely unsupported assertions like ‘I’ve heard’. The text of the CFA reads,
The LTTE signed the CFA and both sides agree on those numbers, whether lone commenters do or not. I understand that you’re angry at the GoSL, so am I. However, there is a whole body of international law and politics governing nation states and this makes them ‘better’ and more accountable than armed terrorist groups. I find it strange that I even have to make this argument. It doesn’t mean that they’re good, but they participate in a global security structure which has a rule set, and they draw people a bit away from chaos.
If you want to argue from emotion that’s valuable as well, but at least take the time to look up your assertions. Some of the things you’re claims here are demonstrably false, which is a bit out of character. Your perspective and writing is valuable, but please take a Google to save me the time.
indi,
aadavan is correct…
statistics are like short skirts… they hide more than they reveal…
there are many types of violations…
the LTTE’s are minor… carrying arms, recruiting “children” (and releasing a large number of them when they find that they are underage – check with UNICEF), raising the Tamil Eelam flag etc…
whereas the GoSL are major violations: bombing and shelling civilians, murder, rape, occupation of HSZ in Jaffna (which is in the end the violation that very early in the post-CFA years let the LTTE know that the GoSL was not sincere about the CFA or any real peace) Sampoor, dissappearances, etc…
answer aadavan’s point on this disparity of the severity of CFA violations…
also,
the GoSL does have an UNSTATED INTERNAL POLICY of:
1) support of paramilitary
2) using food as a weapon of war in violation of international humanitarian law
3) torture
4) rape
5) murder
6) diappearance
Well, ouch, let’s try and use the SLMM statistics as a balanced basis for discussion. Figments of your imagination are hardly balanced. The SLMM puts the LTTE harrassment (under which rape, robbery, etc falls) as 248 against 81 for the GoSL. Why don’t you stop talking rubbish and giving out silly lists that you’ve invented yourself. Believe me, if there was a policy of rape by the GoSL, we’d see it happenning on the scale of the former Jugoslavia. Nothing like that has occurred here. Where are your facts?
You claim that child recruitment/abduction is “minor”, but then why the accusation that the GoSL does the same? If forcing children to fight while your cowardly leader educates his children abroad is “minor”, why does the UN condemn it? Can you provide a link that claims the LTTE has released at least 2015 children to tally with the number of SLMM documented recruitments/abductions (even though each incident would have involved multiple children, making the tally multiples of the actual figure)?
from Reuters:
Nordic truce monitors said reinstating the act went against the terms of the truce.
“Just by implementing the Prevention of Terrorism Act is a violation of the ceasefire agreement,” said Thorfinnur Omarsson, spokesman for the Sri Lanka Monitoring Mission, which oversees a truce that now holds only on paper.
you see indi, the govt has all the “big” violations… while the LTTE has small ones (flag raising etc)
this is a HUGE violation in terms of effect but it only counts as ONE, as does bombing and shelling, and taking Sampoor…
Hmm, yes, LOTs of small ones like ATEMPTING to kill the Defense Sec, ATTEMPTING to kill the Army commander, ATTEMPTING to hold Sampur. The only reason the Tigers (and their worshippers) are so worried about the CFA is cos they seem unable to actually succeed at anything. If they had actually managed to do some damage in Galle or actually hit anything worthwhile, we won’t have them crying in their toddy. The only recent Tiger CFA violations have been ineffectual or soft ones — killing sailors going on leave, blowing up bus passengers, attacking convoys taking food to the Tamils, killing peacemakers like Loganathan, etc.
….a lot of UNP’ers were claiming that Ranil would be President now if the election had not been rigged by the JVP to disenfranchise people who were most likely to vote for Ranil. Does this make Sri Lanka an illegitimate democracy?
yes… SL is not a democracy…
SL may not be a democracy when compared to Western democracy. But on that regressing scale of relative democracies surely the GoSL stands more than slightly above the LTTE.
Prabhakaran’s speech makes some very salient points. I’ve read it almost in full and the bugger – while whining – also makes some pertinent accusations. However, Indi’s post in this instance was not one that embarked upon a rational detached analysis of the war and the reasons for it. It was a post to call Uncle P’s bluff. And he did that very well. Even if I were to play devil’s advocate I could not have found too many holes in Indi’s arguments and counter arguments. He did the job he set out to do.
He has in the past also analysed the reasons for the war in a detached fashion and has been blatantly outspoken about the GoSL’s maladministration. The vitriolic reaction to this post is fuelled by the same emotive mistrust that Indi is being accused of.
Far too often the pro – LTTE voices on this forum give a lot of cryptic ‘you don’t know the situation in the NE’, ‘I’ve heard the facts are…’ and various such unsubstantiated catch phrases that you really wouldn’t want to be hung on. Indi has presented facts. Whether they be accurate or not we don’t know. But if they inaccurate surely other documentation will exist that discredit them. Don’t just write off the facts because you don’t like them. Write them off because they’re bullshit and you can show us why they are bullshit. The SLMM is the only arbiter which has been agreed to by both sides and these are their facts.
If the quality of the alleged violations bothers you please present data and not just argument bolstering conjecture.
This thread so far is illustrative of the reason why this conflict may never be solved. This level of hatred I’ve only seen between the Palestinians and the Israelis. You hate Indi, not mainly because he’s making a point, but because he’s a Sinhalese. And the comments have been split down the middle on racial lines.
Aadhavan you started off saying that you wanted a detached perspective and then uncharacteristically got drawn into heated discussion.
If these are the depths that properly rational, coldly intelligent people are resorting to – then I can only shudder to think what the the level of negotiation is when slugs like Nimal Siripala represent the GoSL. Egad!
Indi one premise on which your post is built that I think is flawed is this…You say that there is now a moderate thought pervading the south of the country and you cite SB as an example. I agree. However, as Uncle P points out, it will be some way yet before that moderation is reflected in the leaders of the Sinhala populace. Even in his reaction MR refuses to ‘take Uncle P seriously’. Honestly you can’t attempt to talk on matters of such importance with someone you ‘don’t take seriously’.
The finger pointing and blaming game needs to stop asap. Especially in fora such as this. The people of the Wanni are starving. Doesn’t matter whose fault it is – let’s say both sides are equally culpable. Doesn’t make a iota of a difference if its GoSL 65% responsibled and LTTE 35% in one instance or vice versa – because it all balances out.
There’s this bit in the Bible about a log in your eye and a rod in the other persons eye. If both sides took that teaching to heart it might not be a bad idea. Clean up your own shit before you complain about the stink of your neighbour’s toilet. Unfortunately both sides think they’re shit doesn’t stink.
Mea culpa. My information was wrong. Thanks for the valuable correction. Did you get these stats from the SCOPP site.
However, the data that you provided reinstates my point about the problem with this numerical debate. Continuing violations have simply not been factored in. Plus, the Government has been doing its dirty work through several paramilitaries, and it’s only now emerging that these paramilitaries have been assisted in child abductions for instance by the armed forces. The facts you produced said “occupation of private property’ = 8. This is the whole point. A massive number of people have lost their property to the HSZ and it’s considered to be a single digit violation, while every child soldier is justifiably assessed to be a violation. I tried to check for these details on the SLMM website, but there seemed to be no information on the numbers or the nature of violations.
I’m not pooh pooing numerical data. I’m just saying that you’ve got to interpret the numerical data, and that often requires a qualitative assessment of the nature of violations and the manner in which data is recorded and documented.
I’m not just angry with the state. I’m angry with the LTTE too. But I don’t think I’m angrier with the LTTE than I am with the government. I just see them as equals in terms of atrocities.
The government is supposed to be held up to a higher standard. Even this is debatable, but let’s accept it. The minimum age for recruitment for rebel groups is 18, while for states it is 16. The fact that it is a state doesn’t make it automatically better than a rebel movement. You’ve got to fulfill your international law obligations, and when you don’t, the state is even more culpable because it’s violating its International Law obligations.
I accept that the GoSL is more responsive than the LTTE to international pressure. This probably more to do with the fact that the GoSL is heavily dependent on international aid and assorted handouts, while the LTTE is not. However, in the recent past the LTTE have been diplomatically hammered, and this has resulted in the GoSL getting away with some of the things it’s been doing. i think this is changing slowly.
Maybe the child recruitment issue is now null point considering that the LTTE have released many children who wished to join anb lied about their age. Also the complaints are logged by Tamil parents who don’t really know sometimes who has abducted their children. Now its internationally known that Karuna and the government have been forcfully recruting Tamil children. The UN and now Human Rights Watch have criticised the govt. So these numbers satcked against the LTTE are flawed.
The argument that just because both the LTTE and the GoSL are responsible for the war, they both share equal blame is ridiculous.
Just because two parties are are responsible for something, that doesn’t mean that each is shares 50% of the responsibility. That’s just specious. If you could quantify the blame, it’d be bloody surprising if the figure ended up at 50:50, no?
ya, the GoSL would bear all the responsibility… because this situation exists due to the rascism of the GoSL and the sinhala people from the time of independance and the continuing discrimination…
the GOSL and the sihala people CREATED the LTTE through their own action: 1983 etc…
so if you source all the responsibility… it is the GoSL
indi let’s have a qualitative break down of the CFA violations…
the raw stats do nothing for me…
as adddvan said:
if each “child” recruited is a CFA violation then shouldn’t each person who was not allowed to return to their home (“occupation of private property’) be considered a CFA violation individually…?
thus the 200,000 in jaffna who languish in camps 10 years after the gosl took jaffna SHOULD BE EACH A CFA violation, no?
Get over this victim mentality already. Neither the GoSL nor the Sinhalese people spend all their time thinking how they can make things worse for Tamil Sri Lankans.
What discrimination exists today against the Tamil people that is not a result of the war? The last time I asked this question I had a husge debate with Aadhavan and David Blacker and in the end their turned out to be only two valid examples of discrimination that is not a result of the war situation:
1. The constitution gives the foremost place to Buddhism, and a non-Buddhist president, if elected, would need to swear to uphold the constitution, arguably (and indirectly) in violation of his own possible religious leanings.
2. The lack of Tamil language service in all government institutions in all Sinhala majority areas. (The forms are in all three languages, and in Tamil majority areas, there is service in Tamil).
The minorities communities in other areas live in relative peace and experience high rates of economic growth: for example, the Central Tamils and the Muslims. Why would the GoSL discriminate against only the Northern Tamils? And, how do you justify the view that the LTTE are still protectors of the Tamil people? (Whether they ever were is also arguable).
*excuse the typos
the “central tamils” enjoy high levels of growth… most of them still live in long houses…
the people of the NE elected the TNA to 22 of 23 MP seats – the TNA ran on a platfrom of the LTTE being the sole representatives of the Tamil….
is this a democracy…?
if you say yes… then you have to respect that the TNA put it out there and the PEOPLE SUPPORTED the LTTE as the reps of the Tamils… whether you like it or not…
that’s why the Gosl is killing ‘em off…
and the instances of rascism are too many to mention…
i bet you say this to: “i’m not a rascist, some of my best friends are Tamil…
“Get over this victim mentality already. Neither the GoSL nor the Sinhalese people spend all their time thinking how they can make things worse for Tamil Sri Lankans.”
you sound like an American Republican… there’s no rascism… we’re all equal…
walk a mile in my shoes…
that is correct…
TNA won overwhelmingly…
and anandasangaaree and all the other quislings of the GoSL lost heavily…
sorry that should have conveyed the fact that ravana is a fool if he thinks the upcountry tamils are well off…
“the raw stats do nothing for me…”
I don’t know… they kind of give me a tingling feeling… the good type
in your butthole… mmmm, yummmmmm
I don’t want to get into this long argument again, but suffice it to say that from a Tamil perspective, the Tigers are the only ones who manage to keep the government at least thinking about those structural reforms needed for the tamils to live in security in the future. That is why they have been called the protectors of the Tamils. They have failed the tamils in many ways and this calls into question their ‘protector’ tag, but they remain the best hope for negotiating out a solution.
Ravana, when i say the blame is to be shared equally, I mean that it is impossible to blame one side more than you do the other. It’s not some 50:50 formula with mathematical precision. It’s just that every credible argument about the culpability of one side can be countered with an equally credible argument about the culpability of the other.
I don’t know why you mention me in your critique of this discussion Sophist. I’ve consistently said that both sides are to blame and you can’t just assign blame on to the one side and claim moral high ground for the other. From a Tamil, that’s going a long way. A lot of the other Tamils on this post will disagree with me I’m sure. Most Tamils believe the government started this off and that’s what i believe too. I’m willing to go the distance and say that the Tigers have not served the Tamils in the way that they should have, that they have messed up and that they too share the blame for the mess the NorthEast and the country at large is in. Tell me if I’m wrong to point out that the numerical data be interpreted qualitatively. If Indi’s point in this post was to blame the LTTE and focus on that point alone, I wouldn’t have a problem. Blame the government another day. Rather, it was his assertion that the government are less culpable that I didn’t agree with.
comments wouldn’t nest… so to address you blacker:
“Well, ouch, let’s try and use the SLMM statistics as a balanced basis for discussion.”
statistics alone do not tell the story…
a qualitative breakdown of the CFA violations rather than a quantatative listing would show a very different picture…
if you notice the SLMM website doesn’t have the raw numbers up any more… it is FOR JUST THIS REASON… the numbers were being used by people like you rambukwela and kohona (you must love being lumped in with them) for their specious arguments…
abduction of children / child soldiers in any number is a sad thing… BUT 200,000 people languishing in camps because they aren’t allowed back into their homes, schools, and temples because they are HSZ is just as sad and are equally CFA violations…
If you all love the SLMM and accept that the are independant and impartial you should realize that despite your harping on the statistics the SLMM in general puts most of the blame for the current situation on the GoSL
http://www.slmm.lk/W_Report/SLMM%20WSR%2020%20-%2026%20Nov%20public.pdf
read their reports
[this comment accidentally got tossed, readded]
“statistics alone do not tell the story…”
Never said they did. But they are way better than your fantasy numbers that you seem to pull out of your backside without a single link to back them up. What I said was, if you want to discuss a topic, find a base of mutual acceptance from which to start. Maybe that was too subtle for you.
You can make claims willy nilly that the UN & SLMM or whoever blames the GoSL “more”, but that’s just subjective and highly arguable. How exactly do you quantify “more”? Both bodies have roundly condemned the LTTE for awhile now, and are just moving onto the GoSL. The LTTE has also been banned in Europe & North America.
There’s no point you trying to debunk SLMM figures unless you have figures of your own. If you don’t want to debate statistics, stop inventing your own, and address the points Indi has brought up while laughing at ol’ Prabha.
The crux of this matter seems to centre around the apportioning of blame and in which quantities. I think it’s fair to say that except for extremists on both sides, the rest of us agree that both sides are to blame. Trying to arrive at an overrall quantum for that blame is a silly and futile exercise.
The Tamils blame the government for marginalising them for years before they took to arms. The Sinhalese (not the GoSL – the two are often mistaken for one another) blame the Tamils (not the LTTE – these two are also often mistaken for one another) for being vicious murderous bastards. [added] Both claims are true in each side’s field of vision. Doesn’t make them necessarily true in any objective sense though. The semantics between GoSL/Sinhalese and LTTE/Tamil and the interchangeability of these terms serve to bruise a lot of ego and create unwanted strife. [end add]
What is the fact that cannot be changed? That like it or not the Tamils are a minority. Numerically. That maybe an unfortunate circumstance for some but it a stark reality. Minorities in other countries fall in line. Similarly the governments of other countries are inclusive. Tamils have always been the minority and when they were involved in Government under the British nobody gave a toss. They learned English and rose to administrative upper echelons. This willingness to learn another language in an attempt to curry favour has, understandably, not survived the change in Government.
However, GoSL at least legally and theoretically is the protector of all Sri Lankans – be they majority Sinhalese or minority Tamils. It is therefore a reasonable, although contentious stance to take that the GoSL is not on parity when it comes to being arseholes.
If a bomb goes off in Colombo, the general hospital WILL treat Tamil patients. I doubt the same can be said of the NE Tiger medical establishments. There is no question of prioritising in the South based on ethnicity.
The victimisation complained of by most Tamils, is once again unfortunate. But once again it is uneducated grass root level reaction to legitimate security concerns. To a soldier at a checkpoint a Tamil is a potential Tiger and that is a worldview created by Prabhakaran.
I think we have arrived at the consensus previously that Prabha does not represent all Tamils. If he does, then those Tamils who are living under GoSL patronage should actually fuck off. You can’t have your cake and eat it. Ask yourself whether, if Eelam was granted tomorrow you will up and leave? If the answer is no – denounce Uncle P, but continue the fight.
Aadhavaan, you’re using incidents that can’t be proven to be deliberate targetting of civilians.
The Trinco kids were killed immediaately after a grenade was chucked, and obviously wasn’t preplanned.
I’m not sure whhich incident involved the kids in Vavuniya. Do you meaan the so-called “orphanage”?
The killing of the aid workers in Muttur hasn’t been proven to be GoSL.
Not familiar with the Pesalai incident, so won’t comment.
It hasn’t been proved that the GoSL killed the Mannar family.
Even if these are proven, it doesn’t show deliberate pre-planning the way the assassinations of Premadasa, Gandhi, Kadiragama, Neelen Tiruchchelvam, or Kethish Loganathan. Neither have any of these incidents shown a policy of targetting that we saw at Central Bank, Kolonnawa, or Katu, or even the bombings that are aimeed at maximmum civilian casualties like the Dehiwela train bomb. You will note that I haven’t mentioned Nihal de Silva’s murder, or the murder of those bus passengers, because that was random. Surely you can differentiaate between deliberate and random killings. The GoSL is guilty of the former form, while the LTTE is guilty of both forms.
I am talking about policy, Aadhavan, which requires pre-planning and deliberation at some level. There is no sign of this from the GoSL. If you wish to say that random incidents are equal to a preplanned policy of murder, say so. Stop trying to point out a policy where there is none.
If you were to say that the GoSL has a policy of covering up war crimes and ignoring military brutality, I’ll accept that, because the continuity is there. There is no policy of deliberately targetting civilians.
David
sorry if i missed it but… in the abscence of written policies on any of these issues (killing of civilians, targeting of civilians, etc.) from either the GOSL or the LTTE please explain how you deduce that said action or event is part of a larger “policy”.
again, sorry if you’ve stated it before and i missed it…
also, you say,
“I am talking about policy, Aadhavan, which requires pre-planning and deliberation at some level. There is no sign of this from the GoSL. If you wish to say that random incidents are equal to a preplanned policy of murder, say so. Stop trying to point out a policy where there is none.”
how do you decided or “rule” on whether an incident is “random” or “preplanned policy”…
over the years there have been thousands of tamils abducted from their homes and checkpoints, tortured, killed and their bodies dumped… these are civilians who were deliberately targeted… seems like a “policy” to me…
the massacres that have happened throughout the northeast by the GOSL forces through the years were also part of “policy” because they were used to disuade support of the LTTE…
the bombing of civilian buildings and infrastruce and homes, in your view “random” or errors, but you are making an interpretation of the event… how can you know what the mission was… the inordinately high number of civilians killed as a result of GOSL bombing and shelling would in my mind lend support to the theory that rather than being random events they were part of a POLICY to intemidate and terrorize the civilian population. One such incident was the Vaharai shelling (47 killed) this was an example of the policy of the GOSL to shell civilians in order to “get them moving”… this shelling and the embargo on food and medicine is designed to move them out of LTTE controlled areas to govt controlled areas… this is a POLICY.
and if you want to determine policy based on events and statistics lets take the number of civilians killed by the GOSL and the LTTE… as you know the GOSL has killed more civilians than the LTTE…
also, not all of those in the “border villlages” are civilians… they were part of a govt POLICY to colonize the tamil areas and as such become part of the politico-military marginalization of the tamils and lose their civilian status… similar to the jewish settlers in the west bank and gaza…
Civilian I don’t wish to agree or disagree with you about who has killed more civilians. I don’t know. But when you assert something which you represent as a fact, it’s generally better to back them up with some sort of evidence, the credibility of which is another matter altogether. So do that please.
I also do not wish to contest the so called ‘colonisation’ of the NE. Yes, poor civilians were chosen from the deep south and resettled in areas closer to the Mahaweli in an attempt to give them a better way of life. Some say the agenda was larger – and I do not disagree. Nevertheless that does NOT make them non-civilians. They are as much civilian as you or I. And just because they chose what they may have thought at the time were greener pastures, that doesn’t justify them being called military.
I may hasten also to add that they were resettled in another part of their own country. The Gaza settlers ARE civilians.
sophist, but in both cases they “put themselves out there” to be pawns of the state… those is gaza are/were/will be (depending on the govt) part of the state policy to “protect” the land by putting “civilians” on it so that the govt can lay claim to the land…
as far as the NE being part of Sri Lanka I subscribe to the notion that when the british left the tamils and the sinhlaese entered into a “social contract”, the soulbury constitution, which had section 29 (2) which protected the minorities… once that was abogated without the aquiesence of the tamils… the contract was broken and the tamils reverted to their precolonial status… a separate nation…
as far as the stats… you just need to complie them… sounds like a good project for the christmas break from school…
peace
“but in both cases they “put themselves out there†to be pawns of the state…”
In the case of the Mahaweli farmers, they were being evicted from their lands in the proposed hydro-cachement areas, and were forced to accept what the GoSL offered them. In Israel, the settlements are often the only option available to poor immigrants. They have no choice but to take what is offered.
” the contract was broken and the tamils reverted to their precolonial status… a separate nation…”
First of all, the Soulbury Commission wasn’t a condition for independence, so the breaking of this ‘contract’ (which is itself arguable) doesn’t mean we revert to two nations (even if the latter can be proven to have existed). However, if for arguments sake, we accept this step back to pre-colonial conditions, are you then arguing that this two-nation status somehow justifies the ethnic cleansing of the border areas by the murder and terrorizing of these Sinhalese farmers? If so, the right wing Sinhalese should be justified in their call for the driving out of the up-country Tamils (brought in to ‘colonise’ the highlands) and the ethnic cleansing of the south of all Tamils. Shouldn’t the LTTE instead offer the border country Sinhalese citizenship in Tamil Eelam, just as the up country Tamils were offered Sri Lankan citizenship?
“as far as the stats… you just need to complie them… sounds like a good project for the christmas break from school…”
Are you volunteering to actually find facts to back up your theory, Civilian? Surely you’re not asking US to look for numbers to prove YOUR rather shaky theory?
“just as the up country Tamils were offered Sri Lankan citizenship?”
and how many years did this take… and even then not all were offered… don’t try and rewrite histroy david…
vis a vis the soulbury constitution… section 29 WAS probably THE motivating factor in the Tamil leaders of the time accepting the constituion… so it WAS pre condition for them…
G.L. Peris in the Daily News 12 March 1997:
“…safeguard was provided for the minorities by Article 29(2) of the Soulbury Constitution. It prevented parliament from conferring benefits on the majority community and imposing disabilities on the minorities. The Privy Council in Bribery commissioner Vs Ranasinghe had ruled that Article 29(2) can not be amended even with a two-thirds majority. It was on the basis of this safeguard that the Tamils acquiesced in the granting of independence in 1948.”
the last sentence is the telling one…
David you said, “First of all, the Soulbury Commission wasn’t a condition for independence, so the breaking of this ‘contract’:
The Privy Council, in Bribery commissioner Vs Ranasinghe stated that section 29, ” represent the solemn balance of rights between the citizens of Ceylon, the fundamental condition which inter se they (the tamils – nuts) accepted the constitution; and these are therefore unalterable under the constitution.”
thus all constitutions after 1971 (which dropped section 29 and any appeals to the privy council) are illegal because it was only after the inclusion of the section that tamils accepted the constitution and thus as stated above they are “unalterable under the constitution…”. Even with a 2/3 majority… because the explict approval of the tamils (and other minorities) would be necessary, in essence a new “social contract” would need to be entered into…
Nut, regardless of how long it took for the upcountry Tamils to be offered citizenship, it was done. No such offer has been made to the NE Sinhalese & Muslims. Instead, the LTTE has attempted to ethnically cleanse the NE by murdering and terrorizing these communities, just as some in the Sinhalese dispora are advocating should be done to the Tamils.
With regard to the Soulbury Commission, if you bother to read my post, you will see that I said the claim that it was a precondition for independence was arguable. However, I didn’t dispute it, and said I would accept it for arguments sake. Since you haven’t read my post, let me ask you again — are you attempting to justify the ethnic cleansing of the NE under this two-nation status (whether such a two-nation scenario ever existed is also arguable)? If so, aren’t the Sinhalese then justified in ethnically cleansing the south of Tamils?
Do you find it easier to argue with people who are in agreement with you, rather than back up your obviiously shaky theories?
sorry, i wasn’t clear in my post:
vis a vis the alleged “ethnic cleansing”:
it’s a complicated issue…
1) you can’t reward the govt sponsored colonization of the NE and those that took advantage of it… especially in cases where tamils were ethnically cleased from their lands so that the sinhla settlers could settle…
you assume that there were no inhabitants of the areas colonized… there were in many cases, though the history of this has been jealously protected… try and go to the National Archives and ask to see ANY documents having to do with the northeast… especially if you have a tamil last name…
2) i can’t speak for anyone but myself but i would expect that all communities would be invited to live together in the new country… but the issue of citizenship would have to be addressed on a case by case basis…
the LTTE have already encourage muslims to come back to Jaffna and the NE as a whole…
so, don’t try and obsfucate the issue by picking on one small part of it… the issue of citizenship will be addressed when there is a need for it…
i notice you do that when stumped… you brush things aside and then pick a side issue to go off on… good debating tactics but not very intellectually honest…
by the way, where did you go to university and what was your major?
peace
Didn’t realise that ethnic cleansing (aka murder) was as complicated as you make out. Comprehension problems again? If you think it’s OK to punish Sinhalese & Muslim civilians for GoSL policies that they had no choice but to accept, then I’m sure you”ll agree that it’s cool for the GoSL to kill Tamil civilians who are being used by the LTTE as human shields. Thanks for clearing that up.
It’s a bit ridiculous to state that citizenship will be offered once a separate state is established when that establishment seems unlikely anytime in the foreseeable future. It is doubly silly to make that statement given that in the unlikely eventual establishment of the state there will be no minorities left since they would all have been ‘cleansed’ (aka murdered).
And btw, YOU brought up the citizenship issue, not me. I was talking about ethnic cleansing. I am sure the citizenship issue will be brought up at the appropriate time (when the separate state is established and populated only by Tamils, right?).
Yes, I’ve noted the encouraging methods the LTTE has used to convince the Muslims to return to Jaffna. Was murder, rape, or torture the most effective of the methods? Just curious.
As for your personal questions about my education, my major is in killing Tigers. Several institutions offer this exciting and stimulating academic course of study. I particularly enjoyed the practical part of it. I would be happy to give you a demonstration anytime you are free. Do drop by.
“As for your personal questions about my education, my major is in killing Tigers. Several institutions offer this exciting and stimulating academic course of study. I particularly enjoyed the practical part of it. I would be happy to give you a demonstration anytime you are free. Do drop by.”
by Tigers do you mean all Tamils?
if you’re so good at it why don’t you sign up again…? you seem to have all the answers…
as to the rest of your post… i can’t be bothered to get into it with you… it’s tiresome and i have better things to do… there is no real point to this silly back and forth… good luck to you buddy, have a nice day
If S. 29 of the Soulbury Constitution of 1947 was a precondition to Independence, then clearly it has been broken by the Republican Constitution of 1972. As a result, perhaps Nuts and Uncle P can petition the Queen to revoke the Ceylon Act of 1948 which granted the then Ceylon independence. If independence was granted by an Act of British parliament surely it can also be repealed. Then let’s go back to the status quo ante 1948 and renegotiate S. 29(2) so that you really really can’t…really really…can’t detract from it. Really really really.
Sophist, I think the point is that 29(2) was the solemn promise on which the merging of the Sinhala nation and the Tamil nation was based. Also, since 29(2) was unalterable, the argument runs that the 1972 and consequently the 1978 Constitutions are illegal. The redress suggested is not the revocation of independence, but allowing the two nations to renegotiate on how they will exercise their distinct rights to self determination, without reference to the procedures and constraints found in the illegal republican constitutions.
It’s a very theoretical, legalistic argument, but has been used by LTTE legal advisors during negotiations and I’m sure we haven’t heard the last of it.
“Then let’s go back to the status quo ante 1948 and renegotiate S. 29(2) so that you really really can’t…really really…can’t detract from it. Really really really.”
Sophist, and there you have the crux of the problem… whatever the nonsense of the back and forth arguments on the blogs… the question is:
How can the “next” section 29 (2) be “unrevokable”, permanent, unalterable…
As stated by US Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, in a letter dated 23 July 1925, to Harold Laski
“I have always said that the rights of a given crowd are what they will fight for.”
(Holmes – Laski Letters Vol 1, (ed) Mark D. Howe. HUP, 1953, p. 762)
the LTTE fight for the rights of the tamil people.
Aadhavan I’m sure you’ve heard about the principle of parliament being unable to fetter itself. Need I really say more. Those principles were espoused long before this problem existed.
You talk of the merging of a ‘sinhala’ and ‘tamil’ state in 1977. My history is sketch. Tell me more about these two states that existed prior to 1796 and then 1815. I think some research on the Kelsonian thoeries of the grundnorm might serve you well.
Nuts…you have some valid points. I don’t like you – but some of your points are valid. The rights of a crowd are what they will fight for. Granted. Then should we hand over the NE to the LTTE and them alone. Because although you support, and cheer from the sidelines you’re not willing to fight are you? Neither are a lot of other Tamils. Then they shouldn’t be granted those rights that the LTTE is fighting for. That would be usurpation – and nobody would want that no?
If you want to google quotations and start a debate on semantics and legal grounds, you picked the wrong man son.
The Indian Courts have their own “basic features” read into the constitution. Seems like the Courts here did the same thing with 29(2). Yes, Parliament can’t fetter itself, but the a Constitutional provision which the Courts have determined to be “unalterable” is hardly a regular statutory provision no?
I don’t want to get into the whole debate about history. In this country it’s too divisive. So even if you don’t accept the existence of the two nations, let me substitute “people” for nation.
sophist you might want to go back to International Law 101, or just google: state, nation, and nation-state
all very different things in int’l law and in political science.
vis a vis the “fight for your rights” (to parrrrrrty as the Beastie Boys once said):
the LTTE fight for the rights of all tamils… there is no need for all tamils to have “signed on” to the fight for self determination… a group arose and exists and states that they fight for something… they recieve support… that is the defacto situation…
as far as me and what i do or do not do or what i do or do not support… let’s leave that out, ok? if you want this “voice” that has (as you stated) SOME valid points then lets stick to discussing that and not “our” roles, or lack thereof, on either side… maybe someday we will be free enough to have this dicussion without the anonymity… but this isn’t the time…
Nuts, this is a silly line of reasoning. Since you like American examples, how is the LTTE different from the KKK in that case? :)
Oh, I forgot… Even the KKK doesn’t kill everyone who wants no part of what they profess to be fighting for :)
huh?
In plainer English with quotes,
What you’re saying is the same as saying that supremacists (such as the KKK) fight for all people of a specific race, ethnicity or whatever, no sign-on required.
The whole point is that the LTTE may say they speak for everyone but considering their propensity to gun down those with dissenting opinion, it’s just plain silly to draw a conclusion about what the Tamil community may think.
And as Sophist pointed out, some of you choose to merely cheer from the sidelines don’t you? So you’re not fighting for it at all. Does the LTTE speak for you if you’re not carrying arms with them?
OK, Civilian, some of your questions are interesting, so let me try and answer.
“in the abscence of written policies on any of these issues (killing of civilians, targeting of civilians, etc.) from either the GOSL or the LTTE please explain how you deduce that said action or event is part of a larger “policyâ€. ”
Is it necessary for policy to be a written document? I think not. A policy can very well be a set of preplanned and set out rules or steps with which to deal with a given situation. These may or may not be written down. For instance Hitler had a policy concerning the Jews, Milosovic had one covering the Bosnians, Croats and other ethnic Jugoslavians. The Nazis documented this policy to some extent, the Serbs did not. Both, however, are generally recognised as policy.
“how do you decided or “rule†on whether an incident is “random†or “preplanned policyâ€â€¦”
You ‘rule’ by analysing the visible and available circumstances leading upto the particular incident. I have given several examples — CBSL, Dehiwela train, Kokkadicholai, Dollar Farm, Vakarai, etc. I have just compared Dollar Farm to Kokkadicholai in my last post to Aadhavan, pointing out how the former was policy, but the latter was random. Maybe that answers your question.
“over the years there have been thousands of tamils abducted from their homes and checkpoints, tortured, killed and their bodies dumped… these are civilians who were deliberately targeted… seems like a “policy†to me… ”
Why does it seem so? Making a blanket statement to cover all the civilian deaths as that of policy is as unrealistic as me claiming they were all accidental or mistaken identity. You can only make a claim on individual incidents. Civilians are not picked up, tortured and killed by the GoSL in order to spread terror. Most of these acts are done in the mistaken belief that information can be gathered. Some are the results of hatred, or racism, some are accidental. How do you know they were ‘deliberately targeted’? If you point out a particular incident and argue that it was part of deliberate policy, we can debate that.
“the massacres that have happened throughout the northeast by the GOSL forces through the years were also part of “policy†because they were used to disuade support of the LTTE… ”
As above, this is a blanket statement. Which massacres? Name one, describe it, and we can discuss it. The analysis of the circumstances of the individual incidents, will give you the answer. Without that, it’s not possible to decide either way.
“the bombing of civilian buildings and infrastruce and homes, in your view “random†or errors, but you are making an interpretation of the event… how can you know what the mission was… ”
I can’t KNOW, but I can make a deduction based on military tactics and policy. That is why it is possible to point out Kolonnawa & Katu as legitimate LTTE attacks, as opposed to CBSL or Dehiwela. Similarly, I can tell you that Kokkadicholai was a war crime but Vakarai was an accident.
“the inordinately high number of civilians killed as a result of GOSL bombing and shelling would in my mind lend support to the theory that rather than being random events they were part of a POLICY to intemidate and terrorize the civilian population. ”
You’re right that the number of civilian deaths are inordinately high. However, your conclusion is incorrect. I wouldn’t argue that such deaths are random, but if it’s part of GoSL policy, then it’s a policy of callousness towards civilians, and not one of deliberate targeting. The clincher is that the GoSL gains nothing by terrorising the Tamils, in fact the GoSL loses by doing so. On the other hand, the LTTE gains from its policy of deliberation targeting. The military could minimise civilian deaths by the proper use of special forces and reconnaiisance, but both these are costly in men and training money, and the GoSL is prepared to instead put civilians at risk. This is a policy of callousness, not murder.
“One such incident was the Vaharai shelling (47 killed) this was an example of the policy of the GOSL to shell civilians in order to “get them movingâ€â€¦ ”
Shelling civilians doesn’t get them moving, Civilian, it causes casualties and prevents them from moving. It also makes the survivors immediately dependent on the Tigers around them. That is the reason why the LTTE uses civilians as shields. The military claims it took fire from the vicinity, and returned fire. Surviving eyewitnesses confirm this.
“this shelling and the embargo on food and medicine is designed to move them out of LTTE controlled areas to govt controlled areas… this is a POLICY”
The embargoes are circumstantial, aren’t they. Tamils on the Jaffna peninsula in GoSL areas also suffer from the embargo. What’s the policy there?
“as you know the GOSL has killed more civilians than the LTTE… ”
I’m afraid I don’t know this as fact. Can you show us the numbers? But even if it was fact, it doesn’t prove policy, unless you examine the incidents individually.
“also, not all of those in the “border villlages†are civilians… they were part of a govt POLICY to colonize the tamil areas and as such become part of the politico-military marginalization of the tamils and lose their civilian status…”
I think you are stretching it here. Civilians are civilians, regardless of GoSL or LTTE policies. If your logic is followed, the GoSL is justified in killing civilians who are being used as shields by the Tigers (because they serve a military purpose). Whether the moving of the Mahaweli farmers into the northeast was a policy of colonisation or not is beside the point. I am willing to concede it was policy, but that has no relevance to the LTTE policy of targeting civilians.
Blacker,
never said that the Tigers weren’t brutal and unchecked. I know the force of their brutality and I don’t like them. neither do i like the government. It’s strange how a call for some balance can be interpreted to be an apology for the Tigers. In fact, extremists from both sides will clam that my position is unfair as it gives the other side too much credit. I’m simply saying that both are to blame and it’s impossible to put one or the other on a pedestal and say “x is bad, but y is worse.”
Indi,
My point is pretty simple. Government is in desperate need to contain Tigers. International Community can provide that support. No support if overt policies against Tamils. So….Government stops overt discriminatory legislation and attacks on Tamils. Tamils think, wait a minute, once the Tigers are gone the government won’t be as desperate as they are now, so hopefully the Tigers can negotiate a solution that will ensure that tamils aren’t vulnerable when the Tigers are gone. Sorry, if this is too complicated then I’ll quit trying to explain my point.
There’s no contradiction. A piece of legislation or a state sponsored riot you can’t hide. The Allaipiddy incident or the Trinco massacre or the Thandikulam masscare, you can say “we’re investigating”, “it must be karuna” or “the tigers did it”. Or the killer of all excuses. Shit happens in the war against terror. It worked for a while but seems like the international community is getting sick of the excuses, just like they got sick of the Tigers excuses some years ago.
By the way, I was talking about the Thandikulam Farm school incident where 5 schoolkids were killed by armed forces recently. I’ve given a list of other massacres elsewhere on this post. Saying that you haven’t heard about it or that there is no conclusive proof that the forces did it is introducing a burden of proof that you fail to impose when legitimately blaming other well known attacks on the tigers. A pattern of massacres by forces coupled with a pattern of ignoring the killings by the upper rungs put together is a pattern of killings by the armed forces that it is responsible for and that it does not care about. The only difference even by your understanding of “policy” is that the LTTE attack civilians when to attack is in their interest, while the armed forces just attack, randomly but frequently. What’s the difference in terms of frequency and numbers killed?
Aadhavan, I am aware that you claimm to dislike the Tigers as much as the GoSL, and I wasn’t trying to play a blame game. I do feel, however, that a policy of murder and terror (and in fact a celebration of it) will spawn a far greater amount of death and terrorism than a policy of the blind eye. Let me try and simplify this for you. The LTTE celebrates the murder of civilians — Black Tigers who killed hundreds of bank workers are feted as heroes. The GoSL doesn NOT give medals for killing schoolchildren. As I’ve already pointed out, war criminals HAVE been prosecuted by the GoSL (though admittedly not enough), while the LTTE makes heroes of them. Murder and rape sadly happen in war, but when someone makes it policy (like the Serbian govt did), there is a massive escalation of those crimes. Do you still see no difference between an active policy that encourages atrocities and a passive policy that ignores it?
As to your last para, I have already acknowledged that the GoSL commits atrocities. When I said I hadn’t heard of a particular incident, it’s because I hadn’t, or wasn’t immediately familiar with it. I wasn’t saying it hadn’t happened. Of course the burden of proof is on the accuser when the incident could have several suspects. That is why I don’t claim there’s no proof when the attack is by a Kfir. Similarly, I don’t need additional proof when the attack is by suicide bomber. The attacks I’ve named are atttributable to the LTTE (Gandhi, CBL, Katu, etc). Whereas you name incidents that could easily be either way (Mannar, the aid workers, etc). Bar the Thandikulam incident, no a single one of your examples point to a preplanned deliberate attack on civilians by the GoSL.
Your reasoning behind the GoSL concessions to the Tamils is a picture of paranoia. According to your logic, whatever the GoSL does to change its stance towards the Tamils will be because of the threat of the Tigers. So therefore even if a genuine change comes about, you will be unable to recognise it. Without doubt, the move to change was triggered by Tiger force; but that doesn’t mean that continuing change is because of a continued threat. That’s a leap based on mistrust rather than analysis.
Well the LTTE does not fete suicide bombers because they killed civilians. i said earlier that the LTTE kill civilians when they think there’s a strategic advantage linked to the killing. This means that they don’t go around killing people for fun, but that they just don’t care that civilians get killed when there’s a strategic advantage to be gained. You’ll also find in the past instances where they attacked civilians thinking that the death of the civilians would for some reason give them a strategic advanatge. i think they’ve realised this is not true and i haven’t heard of many attacks in the recent past where they killed civilians for fun. I think the government’s approach is very similar. I can’t quote all the Kfir attacks where civilians were targetted because you don’t want to hear about Kfir attacks. You’ll just say that they were suspected Tiger targets or that the guy just aimed wrong. if the Tigers just wanted to kill Sinhalese they could probably do it. i just hope I’m right and that they don’t want to. The government forces also don’t care about civilian casualties. That’s why they cover up atrocities and promote people who are officially responsible for these atrocities.A tamil gentleman once told me, “The Tigers are a terrible barbaric force. They are a mirror image of the army.”
Aadhavan, I am disappointed to see you attempting to justify the LTTE’s deliberate killing of civilians. Are you saying that having a strategic reason for murdering hundreds somehow makes it OK? Congratulations. However, you are still avoiding the point. I didn’t say that the Tigers kill civilians for fun. I said they have a policy of deliberately killing civilians. You have just seconded my argument by pointing out that the killings are part of a strategy. To the contrary, the GoSL has no such strategy or policy, namely because killing civilians has no strategic value to the GoSL. As you well know, my original point was that the LTTE has such a policy, and that the GoSL does not. I will once more put the question to you. Can you give me instances of the GoSL deliberately targeting civilians as part of a policy? We both know you cannnot.
Hitler did not kill the Jews for fun either. He had strategic reasons with which to “justify” genocide. The reasons were part of policy, just as it is with the LTTE.
Bullshit Blacker. I didn’t justify the killing of civilians. i think it’s wrong, even when there’s strategic value attached to it. Please don’t put words in my mouth and approach my comments with some preconceived idea of what you think I’m saying. I think you owe me the simple courtesy of not twisting my words to project a message you know I could not have meant. I’m a little confused as to your “policy” point, but I’m fairly sure the LTTE don’t have a policy of attacking civilians in the sense that they consider it an end objective. if they did, there’s be many more civilian attacks than there are now. This is the same argument you used to demonstrate a lack of policy on the government side. That atrocities didn’t measure up to Balkan levels. So all I’m saying is, if the scale of atrocities is an argument to negate the existence of policy, it works to negate the assertion that the LTTE has a similar policy. My point is, policy or not, both sides are relatively unconcerned about civilian casulaties. Strategic advantage is all that matters. Sometimes ego gets in the way and you’ll have a retaliation against civilians.
Come, come, Aadhavan, don’t attack me because you didn’t articulate yourself well. These were not my words: “i said earlier that the LTTE kill civilians when they think there’s a strategic advantage linked to the killing.” You said this in reply to my comment that the LTTE targets civilians as a policy. Saying that attacking civilians is a means to an end, sounds like a justification of said killings.
Whether the killing of civilians is a means or an end is beside the point, Aadhavan. The point is that the LTTE has a policy of killing civilians, full stop. Motive is immaterial, except to prove that there is a motive. The fact that there are far more DELIBERATE targetings by the LTTE than the GoSL is self evident in the incidents we have both used as examples — deliberate LTTE attacks on civilians far outnumber (both in number of incidents & casualties) those of the GoSL. The two don’t even come close. Sort of like Srbian attacks vs Croat attacks. I didn’t try to measure up attacks here numerically to that in the Balkans, the way you’re attempting to.
Yes, I agree that both sides are relatively unconcerned about chance civilian casualties (the LTTE is also unconcerned about Tamil casualties, and in fact attempts to maximise these whenever possible), but that has nothing to do with the LTTE policy of deliberate targeting.
“Saying that attacking civilians is a means to an end, sounds like a justification of said killings.”
It is not.
When you mean deliberate do you mean that the intention of the perpetrator was to kill civilians or that the perpetrator had knowledge that civilians would be killed? The distinction is crucial and you would have to show that the LTTE fits under the former category while the armed forces, the latter.
“When you mean deliberate do you mean that the intention of the perpetrator was to kill civilians or that the perpetrator had knowledge that civilians would be killed?”
I mean the former, Aadhavan. In the case of the CBL attack, the LTTE plan was to cause the maximum amount of casualties to civilians. There was no hope of bringing down the CBL building or reaching the reserves. It was for this reason that LAWs were also fired into the neighbouring Ceylinco (and other) buildings. With the bomb on the train in Dehiwela, again the idea was to kill passengers. When targeting Logananthan, Gandhi, and Kadiragama, obviously the plan was to kill them. And when I use the above examples, I have chosen them because they were obviously pre-planned attacks that were strategic in value, and therefore part of a policy, not a random incident. The claymore attack on the bus cannot be proven to be deliberate, nor can attacks such as the killing of Nihal de Silva. It might have been accidental that they nailed civilians, or might have been a local Tiger commander’s decision ratherthan actual policy.
I can find no such deliberate attacks by the GoSL that would fall under the area of being a strategic decision, and therefore part of policy. If you have any, point them out. GoSL attacks usually fall under the second part of your query — “perpetrator had knowledge that civilians would be killed”. The airstrikes are good examples of this, and both sides are guilty of falling under this category — Friday’s suicide bombing is an example of it by the LTTE; they were not targeting civilians, but knew civilians would be killed. As I said before, there ARE GoSL attacks that fall under the first category of deliberate targeting of civilians, and your example of the teenagers on the farm is a good one. But that, like the bus bombing, is an act by a local officer (retaliation, racism, whatever), and not part of a policy.
So while both sides fall under the second category of having a policy of callousness towards civilians, ONLY the LTTE has a policy of deliberately targeting civilians as part of a policy to kill civilians.
*Sorry, CBL should be CBSL!
Ok. Keeping in mind that you claim that only the Tigers attack targets with the intentional policy of killing civilians, let’s look at the examples you brought into this discussion. Central Bank, Katu, Kollonnawa and the Dehiwela Train Bomb. You also noted the killing of politicians like Kadir, Kethees and Ghandi. You claimed that the existence of a policy can be deduced from a chain of actions, and that the isolated incident can’t demonstrate the existence of a general policy.
It seems to me that bar the Dehiwela Train bomb, all the other attacks were targeting something other than civilians, albeit with characteristic disregard for civilian life. I tend to disagree with your analysis of the CB attack for one. It seems to me that the CB attack was not carried out with the broader policy objective of targeting civilians, but rather, with the objective or motivation of hitting a central economic target of the state. To cause a dent in the morale of the state. To hit the economy by causing international stakeholders to believe that not even the Central bank as safe. Why I say this is that the Tigers could have killed an equal or greater number of civilians with greater ease with an attack on the Borella junction at rush hour for instance. A couple of jam packed buses would have caused similar loss of life. You would have to demonstrate that the motivation or the strategic advantage the Tigers were looking for was the killing of civilians. My inclination is to believe that there was something about the Central bank, other than the fact that many people would be killed in an attack on it, that made it the object of attack by the Tigers. The same reasoning lead one to the conclusion that in all the other examples you cited other than the Dehiwela bombing, there seemed to exist a motivation for the attack other than the killing of civilians. And as you said, one incident hardly proves the existence of a policy.
You also mentioned the killing of politicians. I’ve made the point before, but I’ll just point out that other than for Gandhi, none of the other killings have been determined by any court of law to be the work of the Tigers. However, let’s accept for argument that the Tigers committed all of those assassinations. Let’s be sure of this Blacker, the Tigers aren’t the only ones killing their political opponents. The fact is that Pararajasingham, Sivaram, Kaushalyan and Ponnambalam’s assassinations are also blamed on the government or government allies. The lack of proof or evidence also blights one when attempting to accuse the Tigers of assassinations. I think also that the targeting of enemy politicians can also happen where there is no general inclination towards the killing of civilians. I would however, completely agree with you if you were to claim that the Tigers have a policy of killing civilian politicians opposed to them. As to whether this translates into a general policy of killing civilians, I’m not so sure.
I think you’ll find that the government forces are no different. While on the one hand there are the unchecked massacres of civilians which you seem to suggest is more due to a lack of discipline, there is also the phenomenon of the government attacking predominantly civilian targets in the belief that there is some strategic advantage to be gained. There may be other types of attacks, but I’ll just identify these two for the sake of argument. The latter type of govt forces attack identified by me, is very similar to most of the attacks perpetrated by the Tigers that you have cited. Thus, while the motivation may not have been the killing of civilians, there was knowledge of the fact that many civilians would be killed and there was callous disregard of these consequences.
I think maybe those Dollar Farm type massacres perpetrated by the Tigers could be cited as examples of the Tigers attacking with the motivation of killing civilians. But then again, there are many similar massacres perpetrated on the Tamils by the forces. You seem to exclude these from the realm of policy, so I’ll go with that.
There is one other point to b made on this argument on “policyâ€. The Tigers are assumed to have, and probably do have a fairly centralized command which leads to the thinking that each attack is sanctioned from the top. This makes it much easier to allege the existence of a general policy based on what is assumed to be a direct command from the top rung. With the armed forces, both due to their size and structure, you may not have the same degree of control. This doesn’t mean that the burden of proof on one alleging the existence of a policy is any greater. It’s just that there may be multiple policies, since the one general policy may not be conveyed uniformly through the ranks.
OK, your comments on the CBSL point best demonstrate where you have failed to grasp the ‘policy’ argument, Aadhavan. You are confusing the end objective with the policy. Objective and policy are two different things. Yes, the CBSL attack’s objective was to dent the country’s financial stability. How best to do that? By killing the maximum number of civilians in the city’s financial district. Even the most ‘pure’ of the civilian targets — the Dehiwela train — didn’t have the deaths of civilians as the ultimate objective. The objective was to terrorise — the means was the killing of civilians.
Attributing an objective to the killing of civilians doesn’t disprove the existence of a policy of killing. The killing of civilians is the means to the end. The policy is to use this method. Even terrorism — which is an LTTE policy — isn’t an end, but a means. However it is policy, just as the killing of civilians is policy.
That is why I didn’t use Katu & Kolonnawa as direct examples of civilian targeting (I used them as examples of targeting of civil infrastructure). On those occasions the best means to the ends was to destroy the aircraft and fuel tanks.
So your claim that the Tigers could easily have attacked Borella junction instead of the CBSL is unsound. If the objective was to simply terrorise, you would be right; but the objective was also to attack the financial hub. However, civilian deaths would have been the means to the end in both cases.
Maybe using Kadiragama as an example was a bit hasty as he’s arguably not a civilian. But Logananthan and Gandhi certainly were. Kaushalyan also was military leadership. So let’s leave out individual assassination as an argument as that leads into a different area.
“there is also the phenomenon of the government attacking predominantly civilian targets in the belief that there is some strategic advantage to be gained. ”
You make this rather broad statement without any examples. I know of no predominantly civilian targets that have been attacked by the GoSL for strategic reasons.
“Thus, while the motivation may not have been the killing of civilians, there was knowledge of the fact that many civilians would be killed and there was callous disregard of these consequences. ”
I have not disputed this, Aadhavan. As I told you, the killing of refugees recently by arty fire and the LTTE bombing of that bus are both in the same category. I have already stated that this isn’t part of policy.
“I think maybe those Dollar Farm type massacres perpetrated by the Tigers could be cited as examples of the Tigers attacking with the motivation of killing civilians. But then again, there are many similar massacres perpetrated on the Tamils by the forces. ”
The Dollar Farm massacres, the attacks on the Temple of the Tooth, the Sri Maha Bodhiya, etc, are part of a policy of targeting civilians. Which massacres by the GoSL can you cite that falls into a similar category as the above examples?
“The Tigers are assumed to have, and probably do have a fairly centralized command which leads to the thinking that each attack is sanctioned from the top. ”
Not necessarily. The existence of a policy actually precludes the need for every single attack to be sanctioned from the top. Milosovic didn’t sanction the rape of every individual Bosnian woman; he just set the policy. The same goes here.
“It’s just that there may be multiple policies, since the one general policy may not be conveyed uniformly through the ranks. ”
The existence of multiple policies has nothing to do with conveyence. For example, a policy of shooting only armed enemy, or the opposite, that of shooting all unknowns, can be conveyed easily through the ranks.
I don’t think I’m confusing the end objective and what is said to be the policy. Which is why I think the Dehiwela train bombs and the CB attack are dissimilar. I think that the CB was a target that the LTTE would have eyed, regardless of the fact that an attack on it would be envisaged to cause massive human loss of life. I mean there’s no way of being certain about this without knowing what the LTTE were thinking, but I think there’s enough doubt about the fact that the civilians were the targets of the attack. I suppose at the end of the day, you could ask the question, could the ends have been met without the killing of civilians. i would argue that with regard to the CB, they could have been met, and therefore the loss of life was only a manifestation of the LTTE’s callous disregard for life. Strategic advantage here was not contingent on the massive loss of human life.
Dollar farm etc and Saththurukkondan and Kokkadichcholai are very similar no….
Aadhavan, CBSL and Dehiwela were dissimilar only in the strategic ‘objective’ (broadly, the latter had none beyond causing terror), but both could be achieved only by large numbers of civilian deaths. If you feel that the CBSL attack could have been achieved without civilian casualties, ask yourself whether the attack would have had the same effect if it had been carried out on Sunday or a Poya day. Obviously not. Certain things can only be achieved through the targeting of civilians. That is why CBSL and Kolonnawa are in two categories, but CBSL and Dehiwela are in one. Kolonnawa was an attack on the infrastructure, similar to an airstrike on a bridge. Without a policy of killing civilians, the LTTE would not be able to terrorize.
I’m not familiar with Saththurukkondan, but Dollar Farm and Kokaddicholai are completely different. At Kokaddicholai, an Army patrol was ambushed with landmines and took casualties. The commander of the platoon that moved up behind the original patrol lost it and ordered his men to kill the civilians in the nearby village, claiming they were responsible (or had foreknowledge of the ambush). I know this fora fact because I have personally spoken with the lieutenant who was in command. He was court martialled for the act and cashiered out of the Army. The Dollar farm attacks were a preplanned campaign to murder and terrorize the Sinhalese of the border villages in order to ethnically cleanse the area. There have been scores of similar attacks in the Welioya area against the Sinhalese that the Tigers consider colonists. It was clearly part of the policy of targeting civilians, whereas Kokadicholai was a misplaced act of revenge and murder by a young officer.
This same policy of civilian targeting has seen the attacks on Muslim villages in the east. I have personally walked through such a village mere hours after an LTTE attack, and believe me, every act was calculated to cause the maximum pain, death and suffering to those civilians. Especially long nails had been brought in to enable the crucifixion of the imam and his wife to their front door, for example. These are not items routinely carried by Tiger troops. It was preplanned.
Holy shit.
“If you feel that the CBSL attack could have been achieved without civilian casualties, ask yourself whether the attack would have had the same effect if it had been carried out on Sunday or a Poya day. Obviously not.”
Same effect- No. Envisaged or minimum desired effect – maybe.
As to the massacres of the border villages, you have a theory that each time the LTTE does it, it is to ethnically cleanse Sinhalese and Muslims. That’s fine. But you have got to see these massacres as part of the larger picture of massacre and counter massacre. Sure, you’ll have an anecdote about how the army massacre was just due to indiscipline or racism, but the fact that the brutality of both sides are matched, quantitatively and qualitatively, suggests that the only inference you could draw is that both sides had a policy, or neither did. Saththurukkondan was also a massacre by the armed forces of tamils. I don’t know which officer ordered it or the mitigating circumstances for his decision. All I know is that it happened. And the recurring massacres against and disappearances of Tamils suggest that the state acted towards the Tamils in the same way that the LTTE acted towards the Sinhalese and the Muslims.
“These are not items routinely carried by Tiger troops. It was preplanned.”
Dissappearances in Jaffna in the early 90′s and the Chemmani mass graves also must have been pre planned, you can’t just have individual soldiers taking out civilians out one by one and dumping them in the same grave no…
Earlier, your argument of policy was based on scale, the 95%, 5% point was made by either you or Indi. If it was Indi, do you disagree. Now, the argument is based on personal knowledge of the events prior to the incident. I think you’ll find that the armed forces match the Tigers in terms of numbers of civilians killed or caused to disappear. We can embark on that exercise if you want. And if scale is the test, then you have to be able to prove that the Tigers kill a hell of a lot more civilians than the armed forces. The length of nails is hardly evidence of a policy to kill civilians in general. The story is so bloody chilling though. This has got to end somewhere.
“Envisaged or minimum desired effect – maybe.”
Don’t be fatuous, Aadhavan. The desired effect was to hammer the economy and cause terror. This couldn’t have been done without killing large numbers of financial district workers. Give it up, mate.
“the fact that the brutality of both sides are matched, quantitatively and qualitatively, suggests that the only inference you could draw is that both sides had a policy, or neither did”
That is downright sillly, as well as illogical. Would you say that the large number of pedestrian deaths in Colombo entails a policy of murder by drivers? The only way to gauge if an act is a part of a policy or not, is to examine the motives and circumstances of the individual incidents and see whether they match up across the board (or at least in an overwhelming majority of the incidents). That’s why I’ve avoided making blanket statements the way you, Jey, nuts and the others have. One can only comment on whether a particular incident is a part of the policy or not, and if sufficient numbers do have a pattern that caan be part of thaat policy. That is why I’ve not argued with your statement that both parties have aa policy of casual brutality.
My argument wasn’t on scale, but relative scales. Couldn’t find a reference on the 95%, 5% argument. What is it? What I said was, if there was a policy of deliberate targeting of civilians by the GoSL, the scale of deliberate attacks would be much larger in relation to attacks on civilians by the LTTE. That is why individual incidents have to be examined to determine if they were deliberate attacks or not, whether the pattern is repeated across a lengthy period AND across all areas of the conflict zone. Chenmalai was certainly deliberate, but not sufficiently spread out over time or area to determine policy. If there were ten more Chenmalais across the NE, I would agree that it’s policy. Taking that route, it would be easy to say that the LTTE has a policy of attacking civilian transport because they killed Nihal de Silva and that busload of people, or that they have a policy of killing Buddhist priests because they massacred all of the priests at Aranthalawa and killed the Gunner’s Quoin priest. But there isn’t enough evidence.
There is however enough evidence of deliberate targeting of civilians by the LTTE to determine a policy. If you want to say that there isn’t enough, then we’ll just have to leave it. I have given you enough examples of such attacks, but you haven’t established that even the majority of GoSL attacks are deliberate.
“In the case of the CBL attack, the LTTE plan was to cause the maximum amount of casualties to civilians. There was no hope of bringing down the CBL building or reaching the reserves.”
“The desired effect was to hammer the economy and cause terror. This couldn’t have been done without killing large numbers of financial district workers.”
Isn’t the bets way to hammer an economy to bring down the building in which they work David? So what are you saying David. Did the Tigers do it to kill civilians while ensuring the building doesn’t come down, hammer the economy without hitting the reserves, or cause terror. Oh, and the maximum number of people killed were bystanders and small shopkeepers. And before you ask me for a citation, it’s on Lanka Library or something.
“The only way to gauge if an act is a part of a policy or not, is to examine the motives and circumstances of the individual incidents and see whether they match up across the board (or at least in an overwhelming majority of the incidents).”
The problem is, you’ll never know the motives and circumstances to all the events. And it is easily falsifiable. If someone sees a pattern in the armed forces massacres, or disappearances in Jaffna, all it takes is for one anecdote to put an end to that discussion. And an anecdote from someone who has contacts with the LTTE as to how the Central Bank and Dehiwela blasts were just the bright idea of an area commander with some dedicated troops, karuna maybe will just put an end to all talk that the LTTE has a policy to kill civilians. I’m now very convinced that this whole enterprise on determining whether a policy exists or not is futile.
“Isn’t the bets way to hammer an economy to bring down the building in which they work David?”
Possibly, but not necessarily. Either way, it’s not easy to bring a building down (contrary to Hollywood). If you have limited explosives, you need to place it in key places. Or you have to fly an airplane into it. Trucks don’t work. Do you think the LTTE was unaware of this? They were quite aware they couldn’t bring the building down, so the next best thing is to kill as many people and cause as much secondary, visible, and lasting damage to the area as possible. I have already said this, Aadhavan. Why are you going back to areas we’ve already covered? Don’t know about small shopkeepers being killed, but most of the bystanders killed were from the CBSL, Ceylinco, and Mercantile buildings. In the end, it doesn’t matter whether a dead man is a bank exec or a taxi driver, cos an attack on the financial district with a sizeable death toll is what counts. I hope you’re not naive enough to think that the buildings make up the economy. The NY WTC may have been symbolic for 9/11, but what hurt the Americans was the death toll. To terrorize, one must create terror, and this cannot be done by damaging property.
“The problem is, you’ll never know the motives and circumstances to all the events.”
Then why bother discussing anything on a blog?
“If someone sees a pattern in the armed forces massacres, or disappearances in Jaffna, all it takes is for one anecdote to put an end to that discussion.”
That’s why I said that for a pattern to be determined, a majority of the incidents need to have similar circumstances and motives. One anecdote won’t change the pattern; a number of anecdotes that then make up a majority and create a pattern of its own will. Are you know longer reading through my posts, Aadhavan? I feel you just read the first line only. I’m repeating stuff I’ve already explained to you.
“And an anecdote from someone who has contacts with the LTTE as to how the Central Bank and Dehiwela blasts were just the bright idea of an area commander with some dedicated troops”
Don’t be silly, Aadhavan. Would you say that an attack that captures Kilinochchi or EPS could be carried out by a local army commander and some dedicated troops? Because the CBSL was on that scale strategically.
“I’m now very convinced that this whole enterprise on determining whether a policy exists or not is futile.”
Yes, it does look like you’ve convinced yourself. If you will only look at the patterns objectively you’ll see the evidence for yourself. I’d be cool if you said you just didn’t want to discuss it, but to say that it is futile is to blinker yourself. The evidence for the policy is there, and it is just this evidence that has made the IC label the LTTE a terrorist organisation.
davey,
just because you keep repeating something doesn’t make it true…
policy is subjective unless it is a written policy…
monkeys like you can go on picking and scratching away, but in the end you don’t matter…
Oh, I AM convinced now, monkeynuts. Brilliant line of argument. Did you learn that at the Jaffna uni? Was it after we burned the library or before?
There is something fishy about todays incident in Colombo against Gothabaya. Prior to Mondays speach all main SL leaders including Rajapakse, Ranil and Ratnasiri Wickremanayake all suddendly left the island. I wonder why? There were rumours that all of them had abandoned SL in light of the impending speach. So maybe this was the work of SLA intel with the backing of Gothabaya to bring back credibility to these stooges in the eyes of the Sinhala public. To make them look like they are in the thick of it. I think Vanni have more important fish to fry.
There’s nothing fishy about the LTTE once more proving that they are incapable of hitting a target of strategic military value. I think we’ll see a few more busloads of civilians blown up to raise morale. Another miserable failure.
And the conspiracy theories begin. No, no, it is never the LTTE. Everything is the work of shadowy military organizations run by (you guessed it) the genocidal GoSL which makes it an unwritten policy to target the Tamils. So it was for Lakshman K. so it will be for this.
It could never have been the LTTE. Their hands are always lily white. We’re more accustomed to the LTTE tossing rose petals at people than bombs, clearly.
On a slightly different tack, do the reports of UN peacekeepers abusing children in Haiti now mean that the UN is responsible for child abuse? If elements of the SL military are complicit in child abductions and thus the GoSL is held responsible; should not the same complicity argument be applied to the UN?
Wow, I sound way more rabidly nationalist than normal.. must be something in the water.
If I recall correctly aren’t the UN peace keepers in Haiti Sri Lankan army soldiers sent there after the 2002 ceasefire?
I have seen some pictures of them on Reuters and read an article about Sri Lanka sendin soldiers there.
If so then these guys are unbelievable. Some soul searching needs to be done. I am hardly surprised though. If they can do what they did to Krishanthy and Tharshini then this is just child’s play for them.
Mmm, there are Sri Lankans in the force composition. No Sri Lankans in the list of nationals indited for abuse as far as I can see.
Next unfounded allegation, please?
We could have sent a regiment of Black Tigers over to Haiti instead but they blow up so fast, don’t they?
The Black Tigers aren’t the only ones blowing things up around here it seems. Jey, UN personnel throughout central Africa have been accused for a decade now of continuous child abuse. There are no Sri Lankans in this contingents. Most of the personnel accused come from Scandenavia and northern Europe, with some being Africans themselves. Also, a few Indians implicated, but not many.
Oh my god Ghostwriter, Blacker… Jey is onto the rest of us… I think it’s time we came came clean… OK OK Jey we admit it there is no LTTE… it is a creation of the GoSL in order to subjugate Sri Lankan Tamils. Prabhakaran’s real name is Pandukhabaya Rajapakse (surely the mustache gave it away) and is Mahinda’s twin.
The GoSL are also responsible for UFO sightings and hold the secret as to whether the light goes off when the fridge door closes… they really have no limitations… Mahinda’s other siblings include his brothers Saddam (Siddhartha ) and John Bolton (Janapriya)… Osama is actually his sister (Oshani) and its easy to tell because the mustache is not as thick.
So there you have it Jey… we were hoping this day wouldn’t come. Now we’re fucked
The sooner Chandrika reveals her biggest mistake- relevant for current situation and for generations to come -, the better
Chandrika’s biggest mistake was dissolving parliament when she did and she knows it.
It’s nice to Aadhavan back on a more familiar tenor rather than the wrath with which some previous comments were typed. It just goes to show that even the most rational among us have an emotional threshold that once crossed leaves little to reason. I don’t think anyone will dispute me when I presume that Nimal SiriBoy’s and Balasingham’s thresholds are fairly low – hence the complete breakdown of talks.
Gentlemen – the policy argument has reached a stalemate. There is no point in arguing whether it is policy or not. I tend to agree with Blacker, especially after Aadhavan admitted that the LTTE don’t care about civilian casualities.
Calling Aadhavan’s fears paranoid is typical. It’s unfair and its tunnel visioned. Just because you and I may not do it – doesn’t mean some cunting JHU saffron robed arse bandit won’t engineer another 1983 via the temple. Then what do the Tamils do now that Uncle P has gone into retirement. They have no constitutional safeguard – merely the word of the Sinhala (and I used that word deliberately) leaders that ‘look mate…it won’t happen again. Really. Promise.’
Tree, I think it was, earlier in the thread made the very pertinent comment ‘walk a mile in my shoes’. Honestly, I wouldn’t want to be a Tamil in this country right now. Especially not today. And until we undergo the same hardships they do (whether it be as a direct result of the war or otherwise) we shouldn’t hastily call these concerns paranoid etc. just because we do not share them.
The mistrust is obvious – and it takes balls from one side to be willing to take the chance.
Interesting point, David. It is true that this is a problem for many Sri Lankan Tamils. In Sinhala majority areas you probably won’t find Tamil speaking policemen easily. And, even if you do find them easily in Tamil majority areas, you can be pretty sure that they won’t be able to write down your statement in Tamil. Is this a result of discriminatory policy on the part of the government, discrimination by the individuals in the police force, or a result of the war? The question is arguable, but consider the overt government policy on this as expressed by the presidential directives issued by Kumaratunga in the mid-1990s and reiterated by Rajapaksa this year:
“The person arrested or detained should be allowed to make a statement in the language of his choice and then asked to sign the statement.†and “If he wishes to make a statement in his own handwriting it should be permitted.â€
The problem you brought up exists largely because we don’t have enough Tamil policemen in the police force. The reason for that is two-fold, and they both stem from the fact that the police force is seen as a military instrument by both sides. The LTTE has attacked numerous police stations in the past, and the government also uses them to fight the LTTE (the STF is a part of the police, for example). Therefore, Tamil Sri Lankans do not want to join the police force and aid them in a war against what they see as the “protector†of their people, and the GoSL, as well, is nervous about hiring Tamil Sri Lankans as they see it as a security risk. Clearly, if the majority of Tamil Sri Lankans see the LTTE as their protector and/or sole representative, would you argue that this security concern on the part of the government during a time of war is not understandable?
So, in my mind the fundamental crux of this issue is rooted in the war. I believe that until the war ends, you will not find more Tamils in the police force.
Even if you disagree that this example of discrimination is related to the war, surely you don’t think that this is a legitimate reason for the LTTE to start Eelam war IV
“Therefore, Tamil Sri Lankans do not want to join the police force and aid them in a war against what they see as the “protector†of their people, and the GoSL, as well, is nervous about hiring Tamil Sri Lankans as they see it as a security risk.”
Ravana I think you’ll find that a Sri Lankan Tamil would be more afraid of Uncle P’s retribution directed at said constables family than with anything else.
A Sri Lankan tamil would obviously also have to undergo more stringent background checks than others which may be interpreted as harrasment by the candidate concerned. I don’t understand why there isn’t a policy of teaching spoken and written tamil to the existing police force and/or making it mandatory that the police academy graduates are fluent in both Sinhala and Tamil and maybe semi fluent in English… surely this couldn’t be cost prohibitive. They could even make it a criteria for promotion or salary increments to make it an incentive
They have already made intorduced bilinguality (if there is such a word) as apre-requisite for promotion in the government sector. The problem at the moment is that not enough of people are bilingual as a result of the previous education policies, and you can’t teach an entirely new language to adults that easily anyway. The problem will sort itself out when the present students in school who do learn both languages enter the workforce.
Sophist, I note a hint of condescension in your remarks. I may be wrong, but i think I’ve been consistent in my approach right throughout. I said that you can’t claim that one side is more blameworthy than the other, which is a point you have also made. I think.
My first comment on this thread was “Look, Prabha’s speech was just as absurd as any speech from the government camp blaming all the country’s woes on LTTE terrorism. The way I see it, both sides are to blame.”
Saying “both sides are to blame” is not the same as saying “both sides are equally to blame”. There is a MASSIVE difference.
Any tone of condescension was not aimed at you. Although the likes of Jey deserve more than their fair share. Let me clarify that I was genuinely surprised at your outburst somewhere earlier on, and Blacker (with his motherfucking smarminess) does nothing but stir the shit. I was subsequently glad that your comments were more in keeping with your normal tenor even though I disagreed with you.
Ravana is right though. Saying both sides are to blame and both sides are ‘equally’ to blame is different. To be completely frank I don’t think it matters – and I’ve said this before on this thread – who is to blame and in what capacity and to what quantum. The fact remains that the shit has hit the fan. One person has got to stop the diarrhoea and the other has to turn off the fan switch.
There’s no point arguing about who put the laxative in the food and the fact that someone has short circuited the fan switch. There’s just no FUCKING point!!
So instead of labouring academic issues as to who is responsible for what – let’s move this forward. I’m getting a bit sick of having the same argument in different contexts with the same people.
Sorry Sophist, I just wrote a long post on some technical point because I’m trying to understand Blacker’s “policy” point that many seem to agree with. I agree though that you’ve got to move on. No harm in thrashing out some issues though, so long as it does not lead to a breakdown in understanding the other point of view.
Alot of things happened because of the ’83 riots… i mean there were things brewing before then. Do u think the tigers would have got so much support if it wasnt for those riots? Those riots were planned. Undoubtedly as they had lists only available to the government. Now considering the situation the only face tamils can turn to is some1 fighting for them…its just a pity that those ppl are just as bad…but as the sayin goes ‘whilst underwater one will grab the first stick that is thrown to them’ …and this is what the tamil people did.
In fact before those riots there was unrest but not as bad as wat happend after that.
Now I’ll put the question to you….if your government was exterminating all the people that you cared for just because they were a certain ‘ethnicity’ what would you do?? After 20 years of war would you trust a government to not repeat the acts that have happend before? Do you think they can provide safety? Do you think they will not enforce those policies that was so definately biased against the Tamils?
I’m not saying the LTTE is right….but thats all these ppl have at the moment. And the LTTE is keeping it that way by killing off any competition. Which i think is stupid. But this world is fuckd up.
Sam, while your arguments are usually ration I will have to be a bit skeptical about this one. Are you claiming that Tamil people joined the LTTE en masse after ’83? A lot of them actually fled the country, mostly to India and other places that were willing to offer them asylum. While I am not denying that some Tamils may/did join the LTTE due to ’83 I don’t think the Tamils immediately elected Prabhakaran their Lord and Saviour.
Even people I know who had their houses burnt down due to the riots didn’t suddenly swear bitter vengeance against the Sinhalese and join the LTTE in a moment of anger. The people who were actually victimised were in Sinhala majority areas where there really weren’t that many Tamil people who would have been in a position to join the LTTE.
After the riots there were incidents where soldiers were supposed to have gone around Tamil areas and arrested/abducted Tamil youth.
The truth is the Tamils have nobody to turn to. Tamil politicians who denounce the LTTE are walking dead, those who side with majority parties soon fall in love with power and forget the cause of their people and those who do side with the LTTE are deemed crackpots by most Tamils which probably accounts for the under-representation of pro LTTE parties in government.
As far as the Tamils of the north and east, as well as the diaspora are concerned, politicains like Douglas, Kadirgamar and Anandasangaree are true traitors who will never receive Tamils support. How many Tamils actually voted for these guys. How many Tamils protested in Sri Lanka or took to the streets in foreign countries to support them, or in the case of Kadirgamar, to raise their voices against his killings. Tamils don’t care an iota for such people because in their eyes they are a traitorous handful minority being paid to give lipservice for an unjust GOSL. Tamils blame them for the extrajucial killings and prevailing fear in the Jaffna peninsula. The credibility of Douglas and Anandasangaree and their likes can be judged from the actual actions they have taken against the GOSL to raise the concerns of the hundreds of thousands of displaced Tamils including my relatives. These guys have all remained inactive and tight lipped about the humanitarian crisis because, how can they say anything against their paymasters? They aren’t and will never be considered the true representatives of the Tamils.
During the ceasefire many Tamil politicians who Tamils democratically electede.g MP Kumar Ponnampalam, MP Chandra Nehru, MP Joseph Pararajasingam, MP Raviraj and many other civilinas have all been killed by army intelliegence operatives or their paramilitary henchmen.
are you crazy curious yellow?
“the LTTE are deemed crackpots by most Tamils which probably accounts for the under-representation of pro LTTE parties in government.”
Have you ever heard of the TNA… they won 22 out of 23 seats in parliament and they are very pro-LTTE… and they say the LTTE are the sole reps of the tamil people… that is what the TNA ran on and that is why they won so overwhelmningly… you all don’t like it… but the tamil people did speak and did vote for the TNA/LTTE…
what are you smoking that you didn’t know that…
annandasangaree got his ass spanked when he ran… he LOST horriblly… the PEOPLE rejected his anti-LTTE rethoric… he is a nobody as far as the tamil people feel… but the sinhla govt. love him…
by the way curious yellow… the LTTE had approx. 50 members prior to the ’83 riots…
and after: approx 1,000 in the first 12 months after… and the other groups at the time had a similar explosion in numbers…
you lack adequate knowledge of you own country…
1,000′s of tamils did go overseas, but thousands also went back to jaffna and the east…
the sinhalese created the LTTE through thier mistakes and ill treatment of the tamils
How can you honestly talk about the victories of pro-LTTE Tamil politicians as “representative” of the Tamil people when the LTTE have slaughtered all the alternatives?
I don’t think both sides are equally to blame for this. While the SL govt is behaving criminally to the Tamil people its getting increasingly difficult to ever see how the LTTE can ever participate as a legitimate political party “governing” the North East province. They have never shown the capacity to behave in a non-military way.
If neither side can see a viable negotiation then you have to go back to war to demonstrate your superiority over the other party, so you can re-evaluate what you can afford to concede.
it’s a democracy – or that’s what people there claim…
the people voted…
they chose the TNA…
now you want to bitch about other things…
there were opponents to the TNA but they lost…
live with it…
the tamil people voted LTTE…
they didn’t vote for the quisling groups…
The main reason the Tamils voted for the TNA is that the latter is the only ‘party’ allowed to campaign in the northeast. Anandasangaree, Devananda, etc will be murdered by the LTTE if they attempt to campaign in the northeast. So saying that the ‘people’ voted for the TNA is incorrect. The LTTE voted for the TNA by preventing the NE Tamils from hearing alternate voices. Just as the LTTE voted for Mahinda by preventing the NE Tamils from voting (knowing it would be overwhelmingly UNP). Nuts called it ‘democracy’, but that might explain his name.
this is similar to the “democracy” in the south where the UNP supporters were disenfranchised in colombo…
my point is that there is NO democracy in SL…
and i think that everyone in the northeast knows who douglas and annandasangaree are and they detest them…
they are coward and traitors and even if, and i don’t grant you that, the people dislike the LTTE they dislike traitors even more…
how many vichy french were successful in politics after WWII… not many… there were seen to be colaborators and treated as such… even if the were peace people like douglass and annanadasangaree and karuna would be shunned because they collaboarted…
you all don’t know the heart of the tamil people… that is why all your academic dicussions will result in nothing… you do not know the ground realities, do not know the anger and rage in the diaspora, and can not concieve of the suffering the govt has inflicted on the tamils of the NE.
“and i think that everyone in the northeast knows who douglas and annandasangaree are and they detest them…”
Well, we’ll have to take your dubious word for that, Nut. Cos we’ll never know, will we? If the Tamil people hate Anandasangaree, etc, why are the Tigers scared of letting them campaign? If you’re right, then the Tigers should allow them to campaign and lose. Deciding they will lose based on your assumptions is transparently deceitful.
“you all don’t know the heart of the tamil people… that is why all your academic dicussions will result in nothing… you do not know the ground realities, do not know the anger and rage in the diaspora”
I’m afraid, Nuts, that the diaspora is irrelevant beyond the monies they contribute to the war effort. They cannot vote, just hate. The point is that the NE Tamils want a better life, and so will vote for something better than the LTTE and their TNA puppets if they are allowed to; the diaspora sits in comfort, thinking that if they throw enough cash & hatred at the problem it’ll be sorted. I think you’ll find that if the dispora had to put their children where their money is (like the NE Tamils), the support will dry up the way it has in the NE. You may be arrogant enough to believe you know the heart of the Tamil people, but in reality probably only know your own heart.
No one can claim to know the heart of the tamil people. There are millions of Tamils, all very different. Blacker doesn’t, and you shouldn’t nuts. Unless you’re Rama or Jesus I don’t trust your claims to omnipotence, and you don’t provide any ‘academic’ evidence. Unfortunately, academics are all that’s left to us mortals when it comes to understanding aggregate groups of people.
That is why elections are important, and why it’s so dangerous for one group (or person) to decide what’s right for an entire race, who are traitors, and who it’s OK to murder. I don’t trust the LTTE to make that decision, and I certainly don’t trust you, Nuts. If you want to assert that ‘everyone in the North East’ or diaspora thinks this please back yourself up.
the votes in the parliamentary elections support what i said…
when it is conveint for you, this country is a democracy…
when the results don’t come within your “acceptable results” ie. the TNA pretty much sweeping the NE tamil vote, then you guys come up with all sort of explanations… douglas couldn’t campaign (should have to everyone know what he stands for), elections were rigged… etc…
suffice to say the results stood and the democratically elected representatives of the tamil people explictly support the view that the LTTE are the representatives of the tamil people and are the protectors of the tamil people…
i know you may hate this… but it is FACT… and if you believe in democracy you must accept what the TNA say – they are the legally elected voice of the tamils… AND THEY SAY: LTTE YAY!!!
Ha ha. Have you finished wiping your spit off the keyboard yet? If you say Anandasangaree & Devanananda shouldn’t be allowed to campaign cos everyone knows what they stand for, why let the TNA campaign? We know what they stand for too (“yay, LTTE!” as you so eloquently put it). Democracy means giving everyone an equal opportunity to speak. Yes, the elections stand, and the TNA were legally elected (no one has disputed that, in spite of your ridiculous assertions); but don’t be foolish enough to believe that this is indicative of the NE Tamils’ desires. It’s far more likely that the TNA would have lost if they were opposed on the campaign trail. The LTTE knew that, and said only one dog in this race. So the TNA won because it was the only dog allowed to run. A great achievement, eh?
winge, winge, winge…
and the JVP woulda won if they had more funds to campaign or if the rich colombo based parties hadn’t fixed it…
TNA won becasue the tamil people wanteed them…
look at the jaffna results… THE GOSL controls the area… are you telling me that the LTTE held sway there and were in the polling booths with the people…
come on, you argument is weak… you’re making the same mistake that the US did in Vietnam… gurrilla orgs can’t survive without the support of the local population… the people, no matter how much you wish and pray, support the LTTE… even the middle class tamils in colombo, though they may criticize them when talking to sinhalas or burghers, inside they smile when the LTTE do well and thank them for standing up to the govt.
but keep the blinders on…
Complete bullshit.
Who do you term “middle class Tamils” in Colombo? The people who sit around your dinner table and talk “war strategy”? Those people probably don’t even vote and are possibly apathetic to the war, as the only way it affects them will be having a few roads closed off and the driver being late with the “paang raaththala” from the Hilton.
The true middle classes are the ones who you see in Wella doing the marketing on the road, paying rent for houses they live in or scrimping for a flat, and they will be glad when their money is not worthless before they can spend it. These are actually educated people who will choose to vote with their wallets because they know what is actually in them. They will back a solution that will lead to a stable economy, which ending the war will be a massive boost to. They will vote for who promises to be good to them and the money they earn. They are not stupid morons driven entirely by emotion.
Of course once the war is over politicians in Sri Lanka will actually have to appeal to the peoples’ common sense to win elections and pay thought to things like monetary policy, international trade etc., but that is a long way off. Maybe you’ll have learnt something that’ll help your country by then instead of spewing your bullshit on someone’s blog.
what language are you talking to these wella tamils in…?
are you tamil?
do you really think they would feel comfortable enough to open up to you?
why “yellow”?
as in “coward?”
Blacker and Indi have essentially replied all but one of the questions you put to me. I know people living in the NE who were not allowed to vote, and who if capable of voting would not vote for a pro-LTTE party either. While I cannot claim that their view is representative of the entire Tamil community, I can only say that most Tamils I have known are NOT pro-LTTE. Until someone conducts a survey to find out how many Tamils are pro-LTTE, all I have to go on is my experience of Tamil people, and they are decidedly NOT “LTTE Yay!”.
There are two kinds of people in the world, the motherfuckers, and the motherfucked, and the Tamils are currently the latter by the looks of it. Shitheads like you only serve to give them a bad name, most NE Tamils I know are moderates who would support any peaceful solution. They are also probably educated to what is possibly a level that matches or exceeds that of people in Colombo, and as with most educated people in today’s world are peace favouring. So, ergo, based on my experience of Tamils, you have been cutting classes at school.
As for what I am smoking, don’t be ridiculous. I was taught in school that smoking was bad for you, mmmkay?
pray tell who are these tamils you speak to and under what conditions…
i can categorically tell you that tamils in colombo and the northeast speak one way in “mixed” company and one way with fellow tamils and relatives…
and you’ll never know this because they are SSO AFRAID to speak their true feelings in front of the “other’ – you.
as for education… your ignorance of the NE is shown in this comment… please google it and reseach what the GOSL and iNGOs say… don’t take my word for it… but the NE lags behind the south in all areas of education due to the neglect of the govt and the war (displacement, missed school years, etc.)
“and the JVP woulda won if they had more funds to campaign or if the rich colombo based parties hadn’t fixed it…”
If you say so. Apparently the JVP thinks they DID win.
“TNA won becasue the tamil people wanteed them…”
No, because the LTTE wanted them. Are you seriously trying to convince us that you are too stupid to understand the difference between the ability to campaign and being refused that ability? You are able to type passable English, so I’m assuming here that you went to school and actually exercised your logical processes. If this is not so, please enlighten us to the alternate possibilities.
“look at the jaffna results… THE GOSL controls the area… are you telling me that the LTTE held sway there and were in the polling booths with the people…”
No, I’m sayying that opponents of the TNA were not aallowed to campaign. The elections were fair. The cmpaigning wasn’t.
“gurrilla orgs can’t survive without the support of the local population… the people, no matter how much you wish and pray, support the LTTE…”
I never said they can. I do agree that the local population supports the LTTE. What I disgaree with is your fantasy that this support is given willingly. The LTTE needs to terrorise the Tamil population nad scare them with the Sinhalese bogeyman to keep them docile. The moment the threat gows aawaay, you have dissent and mutiny — aka the TMVP.
“even the middle class tamils in colombo, though they may criticize them when talking to sinhalas or burghers, inside they smile when the LTTE do well and thank them for standing up to the govt.”
You mean you are able to see inside them?
this is getting a bit riduclous:
we’re arguing the “bits and pieces”, the symptoms of the disease rather than the disease itself…
whether you like the LTTE or not – they exist…
the current situation this country finds itself in results from histroy of the post independance period wherein the “tyranny of the majority” (de Tocqueville) has resulted in the creation of and prospering of the LTTE…
so, where does a solution lie?
how can you gaurantee the tamils “protection” under a constitution when the history of the sinhala polity has been to aborgate each and every agreement made with the tamil people or their leaders?
how can the tamils trust the GOSL or the sinhala people?
how can any agreement (federal, con-federal, independance, whatever) reach be implemented?
how can any agreement be safegaurded and not be overturned at a latter date as the Soulbury constitution, with its protection of minorities with section 29, was overturned?
you denigrate the LTTE and their methods, but what other avenue was left to the tamil people… gandhian protests for 30 years after independance and produced nothing – in 1976 the people of the NE voted for independance with their support of the TULF… and then 1983 came…
so, now the young people of sri lanka like indi (the canadian transplant with all the answers) come here and view the conflict as it now is and spout off without any real understanding of history… and condemn the LTTE as “terrorist” due to their “methods” and lack of allowing “political space” for dissenting views… you say, “the tamils probably do have a beef, but the answer lies in democracy and working within the system blah, blah, blah…”
indi… the tamils tried that from the 30′s to the 80′s and all they got for their troubles was ’83′s… the “tyranny of the majority” will NEVER allow for the tamils to have a voice in the running of their affairs… it’s too late…
that is why the tamil people… no matter how queasy they may get sometimes with the LTTE’s methods, in the end support and encourge the LTTE, they recognize that the LTTE are the only chance for the tamils of the NE… without the LTTE having stood up, the tamils would be all speaking sinhla and the NE would be 70% sinhala…
please tell me what you think a political solution would look like… but please no “pie in the sky” solutions… please give a solution that is IMPLEMENTABLE and SUSTAINABLE.
PEACE
“this is getting a bit riduclous:
we’re arguing the “bits and piecesâ€, the symptoms of the disease rather than the disease itself…”
Quite so. Why DID you bring up those ridiculous ‘bits & pieces’ in the first place? Now that yoou’ve been argued to a standstill, you want to change the subject. Dear oh dear, can’t win in a faair fight, can you, Nut?
“whether you like the LTTE or not – they exist…”
No kidding? I thought all those buggers shooting at me were a figment of my imagination! Thanks for putting me right.
“you denigrate the LTTE and their methods, but what other avenue was left to the tamil people…”
I never denigrated the LTTE’s methods. I have always said that the racism of the Sinhalese AND the Tamils gave us this war. The only thing that differentiates the two is that one is a majority, and the other the minority. The Tamils have ably demonstrated to us how they treat minorities in the NE (the Sinhalese & Muslims). If the Tamils haad been the majority islandwide, the Sinhalese would have been persecuted and driven to war.
However, the LTTE has to understand that they cannot win through a terrorist/military approach to the problem. After their initial successes in the ’80s, the stagnant period of the ’90s, and now the repeated defeats this century, they have to have seen by now that the best they can hope for is perpetual war. Is this then the solution? I think not. Therrefore, the table is the only other option. What that ultimate solution will be can only come out of dialogue between the Sinhalese & Tamils. The LTTE has chosen to be the sole representative, and therre lies the problem as well as the characteristics of tyranny. They are interested in power, not the Tamil people.
“come here and view the conflict as it now is and spout off without any real understanding of history…”
Welll, if you understand history, why do you need to invent statistics to justify your arguments? You have been repeatedly asked for links to your ‘statistics’ to no avail. If history can prove your argument, why are you lying? Is it easier to cheat, like the TNA did in the NE?
“so, now the young people of sri lanka like indi (the canadian transplant with all the answers) come here and view the conflict as it now is”
Well, should we view it as it once was? The answer is in the future, and what we do with it.
let’s see the links to your stats… or proof…
the other arguments were going no where and i didn’t see any sense in continuing them… if i had the time and inclination i too would be able to go through and break down your arguments… but then i’m not being supported by my wife like you…
anyway… you never answered my question about your university back ground and degree…?
if you’re such the military expert… why did you leave? what was your rank in the military and when you left…? did you get promoted…?
looser
Ha ha. Whiney excuses again, Nut? Why not be a man and say “I don’t know”, or is that impossible. I see no reason to reveal my personal life to a loser who’s most intelligent act on this blog is to pick a intuitive callsign. But if you’d really like to get to know me, I’ll be at the Horse tonight from 6pm. Come prepared.
prepared for what…???
by the way here’s a quote you might take to heart:
“Neither irony or sarcasm is argument.â€
- Samuel Butler
“Sarcasm is the refuge of the witless”
- me?
answer the question…?
you can’t?
i notice that both you and indi when confronted with questions you can’t answer just ignor them… or go off on some tangential “spin”… or denigrate the person posing the questions…
Missed you at the White Horse, Nutter. What happened? Too busy copying and pasting quotations that pass for wit? :) Oh yeah, you need to be 21 to drink around here. Too bad, look us up after your O/L’s.
I’m assuming you’re making personal attacks cause you lost the actual argument. There is an argument for the LTTE, but you haven’t made it convincingly. All we have is a lone person saying that Tamils think this or that. Forgive me, but I’m not inclined to believe a sample of one random commenter. That’s why people make logical arguments, rather than personally attacking their opponents. As mentioned, your points may be valid but you have to defend them with something more than your (non-existent) reputation. Thank you, come again.
david ignored these questions and so did you
please answer:
how can you gaurantee the tamils “protection†under a constitution when the history of the sinhala polity has been to aborgate each and every agreement made with the tamil people or their leaders?
how can the tamils trust the GOSL or the sinhala people?
how can any agreement (federal, con-federal, independance, whatever) reach be implemented?
how can any agreement be safegaurded and not be overturned at a latter date as the Soulbury constitution, with its protection of minorities with section 29, was overturned?
ANSWER THE QUESTIONS POSED…!!!
I’ve already aanswered them, but apparently your ‘college’ education didn’t include reading.
Dude, this isn’t class and you’re not a teacher. No one is obligated to answer your questions. If you have an argument then make it and let other people respond. These issues have been covered here and in-depth in other posts/threads. Don’t ask other people to do your research for you.
haha, that’s it then… you have no answers other than to denigrate…
you answer those questions and this war will be over…
but you don’t have any answers and so it goes on…
i have no argument… i love sri lanka, i love colombo, i love the sinhala people… it makes me sad to the point of tears that this war exists and continues…
but until “you” can answer those questions the war will go on…
sorry, if you’ve answered them somewhere or in many places on your blog… humor me and provide a succint clear answer to them…
please…
i seriously want an answer and i’m not being socratic… i don’t have the answers myself…
I just have a bit of a problem with your statement in which u say…
” I have always said that the racism of the Sinhalese AND the Tamils gave us this war. The only thing that differentiates the two is that one is a majority, and the other the minority. The Tamils have ably demonstrated to us how they treat minorities in the NE (the Sinhalese & Muslims). If the Tamils haad been the majority islandwide, the Sinhalese would have been persecuted and driven to war. ”
… well…I dont think you should imply all Tamils/Sinhalese are like that~ i mean there were alot of Sinhalese ppl that helped tamil ppl etc… but the thing I found most incriminating was that u felt the same would have been dealt if the tables were turned?? Do u think if there was a tamil majority that they would have wanted education/employment etc to be soo unduly biased?
And you cant base the whole assumption of the tables being turned on the sinhalese/muslims based on wat is happening now. I mean to say that its not fair to generalise that this is what the ‘ Tamils’ are capable of as we have seen it happen now … Do u not feel this is more of a reaction than one that was not instigated? Not that it is in any way right.
And u imply that where there is a majority of one ethnicity it will WANT to overturn the minority. And the only solution is war???
But i do agree with your statement about LTTE just delving for power. It makes me so sick that these ppl have just become bullies of a dying nation. And while i dont think LTTE is in any way a ‘saviour’…at the moment that is what tamils have…and i stress that is also mainly cuz LTTE kill off other ppl … but those groups did start like street gangs…only the fittest survive…well in this case the one with more gunpowder.
Sam, the Tamils are just as racist as the Sinhalese. This is not a result of the war. Tamils always were just as racist. As I’ve said before, the reason things turned out as they did was because the Sinhalese had the power and the numbers. If not, we would’ve had the Liberation Lions of Sinhala Lanka (LLSL) instead of the LTTE.
The ethnic cleansing in the NE of the Sinhalese & Muslims is a symptom of the desease of Tamil racism, just as Black July & ‘Sinhala Only’ were smptomatic of Sinhalese racism. It may have been exacerbated by the war, but the war has its roots in racism from both communities. The war didn’t start in ’83 after all.
Sorry, missed a point. I”m not implying that ALL Sinhalese or ALL Tamils are racist. But Sinhalese & Tamils are racist as a whole. Sri Lankans are one of the most racist people I’ve ever come across, and I have traveled widely.
well…hmm i dont know how many SL u have met…but all the ones i know are really not racist! n i mean both sinhalese and tamil pplz.
well my main point was the whole ‘All or nothing’ sorta thing… and in ne case…if they were so racist how did they manage to survive together for more than 2000 yrs?…i dont know…racism usually occurs when your afraid of the other type because they are different and seem overpowering…mainly one doesnt understand the other…. but sinhalese and tamil ppl are so similar in so many ways that i feel this “racism” you speak of has only just been excaberated in the last 40 or so years…. … i find it hard to think that ppl were as racist as u claim them to be!!
“well…hmm i dont know how many SL u have met…but all the ones i know are really not racist! n i mean both sinhalese and tamil pplz. ”
:) OK, I was born in Colombo to a family that has been in Sri Lanka since the 18th Century; I was educated in Sinhalese and have lived here for 33 of my years. How many Sri Lankans do you THINK I’ve met? I have lived and traveled widely all over Europe & North America. Believe me, bar the Chinese, Sri Lankans are the most racist I’ve met.
This doesn’t mean that it’s the racism that makes one go out and lynch your neighbour, but it’s the racism that guarantees that almost invariably the second line of any conversation about a hitherto unknown person will be “Is he/she Tamil (or Sinhalese, Muslim, etc)? It’s the racism that makes sure our children (largely) marry within the community (or at least religion). It’s the racism that makes us stereotype Muslims as money grubbers, Tamils as studious but untrustworthy, Sinhalese amiable but stupid, Burghers as jolly and over-sexed, foreigners as rich and dirty. And on it goes.
If you think that Sinhalese & Tamil lived in harmony until colonial rule, you are dreaming. It’s a history of war. But that doesn’t matter, for the history of mankind is a history of war. But Sri Lankans remain one of the most racist of people (even among Asians, who are known for being racist). This war was born of racism, and racism keeps it alive and running.
I’d have said that Indians were just as racist, but I agree, Sri Lankans are bloody racist. And it’s not just racism. Racism is a subset of a bunch of prejudices towards anybody that belongs to the “other” group. Whether “the other group” is defined by language, income, hometown, alma mater, religion, race, or ethnic identity.
WEll i concede you probably have met more srilankans then i have~ but i still dont understand why you think they*or should i say We* are the most racist….If while you saythat…” “This doesn’t mean that it’s the racism that makes one go out and lynch your neighbour, but it’s the racism that guarantees that almost invariably the second line of any conversation about a hitherto unknown person will be “Is he/she Tamil (or Sinhalese, Muslim, etc)? . ” …this type of commentry can be found in almost anywhere! Does this mean that I would be racist if i asked for a description of some1 and they said this person is a Tamil/Sinhalese/Chinese…isnt it just a description?…as opposed to a racial slur akin to ‘negroes’ … and the whole marryin in religion thing is found outside of lanka!! I dont see how this ‘treatment’ can justify ur claims that a lankan is racist….isnt that in itself a racist comment (perhaps its your stereotype) :P
If you think that Sinhalese & Tamil lived in harmony until colonial rule, you are dreaming. It’s a history of war. But that doesn’t matter, for the history of mankind is a history of war. But Sri Lankans remain one of the most racist of people (even among Asians, who are known for being racist). This war was born of racism, and racism keeps it alive and running.
“Does this mean that I would be racist if i asked for a description of some1 and they said this person is a Tamil/Sinhalese/Chinese…isnt it just a description?”
Sure, if you were policeman and you were asking for a description of someone (Chinese being quite different physically to negroes, unlike Sinhalese to Tamil). But if the question is asked regularly whenever a third person is mentioned, it’s a tendency connected to racism. And btw, a comment doesn’t have to be a slur to make it racist (eg: Muslims and Jews are good with money). You won’t find the question, “so is she a Catholic?” or “is he a black?” in casual conversation in a western country. You probably will in Asia, and you definitely will in SL. Marrying within the religion is more widespread outside Asia & SL than marrying within the community, admittedly, but you’ll not find the sort of pressures put on children by parents to conform racially that you find here.
I fail to see how pointing out that my own countrymen are racist makes me racist. Sri Lankans are not racist because of our own race, but because of our culture that fosters racism. So I’m not pointing out a flaw in our race but in our culture.
naw, just frustrated because you all never actually address the issues or questions brought up…
you just try to pick apart the argument…
it doesn’t matter…
this is just cyper mastubation for you all…
the war doesn’t really affect you except for a few check points…
you all really don’t matter in the end…
when things get bad you will all leave back to where you came from…
Nuts, as I am not busy at work at the moment and you are so desperate for answers I will answer the questions you put to me.
“pray tell who are these tamils you speak to and under what conditions…”
I spoke to these Tamils in the privacy of their own homes. I did not beat them or promise them candy to tell me what I wanted to hear.
“i can categorically tell you that tamils in colombo and the northeast speak one way in “mixed†company and one way with fellow tamils and relatives…”
What a coincidence! I can categorically tell you that that is bullshit.
“and you’ll never know this because they are SSO AFRAID to speak their true feelings in front of the “other’ – you.”
There is no other me these days thanks to the yellow pills I have been taking.
“as for education… your ignorance of the NE is shown in this comment… please google it and reseach what the GOSL and iNGOs say… don’t take my word for it… but the NE lags behind the south in all areas of education due to the neglect of the govt and the war (displacement, missed school years, etc.)”
Why don’t YOU google it? I mentioned that this was according to MY experience of Tamils, and I was basing my comment on it. Seems like you also missed the reading and comprehension classes at school. Also, the NE area has one of the highest cutoff marks/z-score for university entry. While I believe this to be grossly unfair as many of them lack basic amenities like electricity, running water and puppies for christmas they still manage to get into universities year on year, and some of them even get scholarships to prestigious universities around the world. Pray tell how they manage that with the lowest level of education in the land?
And here is a question for you.
Where are YOUR statistics to prove that the Tamils believe that the LTTE are their saviours? I will not believe such statistics until you can prove they were performed by an independent institution, and you must also submit your answers with the deposit of one black pony which has white feet. Please note that the deposit is non-refundable.
Okay. Hate to stereotype here, but as I’ve said before, stereotypes are based sometimes on a kernel of truth.
Nuts –
You said:
“I have no argument… i love sri lanka, i love colombo, i love the sinhala people… it makes me sad to the point of tears that this war exists and continues…, but until “you†can answer those questions the war will go on…”
You sound like the onus for finding a solution to this problem is on the Sinhalese. I have come across this same attitude before in Tamil Sri Lankans, on more than one occassion. It goes along with a “See what a fine mess you’ve got yourself into because of your Sinhala chauvinism” kind of attitude.
I’m sorry, but I find this ridiculous, not because I don’t think the Sinhalese Chauvinism is to blame (in sizable part) for the mess Sri Lanka is in, but because the Tamil Sri Lankans are suffering a lot more because of the war than than the Sinhalese Sri Lankans, and as a result, I think it sounds hollow when you take that attitude.
Some extremist Sinhalese actually think we should just maintain status quo and wait until Prabhakaran dies – they think they have it so good at the moment. True, a couple of bombs here and there, a few roadbloacks, and that’s just in the cities. Most Sinhalese live in peaceful areas, and are enjoying 8% per cent growth. Tamil Sri Lankans in the Wanni however, are some of the most undernourished people in the country, with no political freedom, and extremely poor quality of life, not to mention death.
The onus for change is on the Tamil Sri Lankans. Or at least, the weight of the need for change in the status quo should be felt more strongky by Tamil Sri Lankans. I don’t know why you seem to think Indi and Blacker need to answer your questions before the war ends. I think you should be answering some questions yourself, like how you can make things better for the people who are suffering most in this war – your own ethnic community.
How about you answer this question:
“How can you expect Sri Lankans, India and the world to ever see the LTTE as a party that can participate as a legitimate political party “governing†the North East province, when they have never shown the capacity to behave in a non-military way?”
“How can you expect Sri Lankans, India and the world to ever see the LTTE as a party that can participate as a legitimate political party “governing†the North East province, when they have never shown the capacity to behave in a non-military way?â€
Tamils know that the LTTE are like the way they are because of the military impediments on Tamils to gain their legitimate rights and homeland. All countries know this. The idea of banning them was to make the Tamils on the island as well as in the Diaspora distance themselves from the LTTE. This backfired and the LTTE is now more popular than ever amongst the Tamils. Just look at the facts.
I am for democracy in Tamil Eelam like most Tamils, as long as there is lasting peace and the terrirorial integrity of Tamil Eelam is not compromised. The LTTE have shown many a time especially via the TNA and SL elections as well as Pongu Tamil demos held all over Eelam as well as abroad, that they can engage as a legitimate political party “governing†the North East province. They did that over the 6 years since 2000.
“Tamils know that the LTTE are like the way they are because of the military impediments on Tamils to gain their legitimate rights and homeland. All countries know this. The idea of banning them was to make the Tamils on the island as well as in the Diaspora distance themselves from the LTTE. This backfired and the LTTE is now more popular than ever amongst the Tamils. Just look at the facts.”
Er… WHAT facts? You and Nutcase have been conspicuous for you inability to provide any evidence of your claims. If the IC believed the LTTE was merely forced to resort to terrorism, there would have been no ban. And btw, your analysis of the reasons for the banning is just a parroting of LTTE propoganda. The ban waasn’t to distance the Tamils from the LTTE — what’s the point of that if they weren’t terrorists? Thhe ban was to prevent a terrorist group from raising funds. And I don’t know about backfiring and popularity. Why was there such a poor turnout in London this summer?
David Blacker “but don’t be foolish enough to believe that this is indicative of the NE Tamils’ desires. It’s far more likely that the TNA would have lost if they were opposed on the campaign trail. ”
Are you saying the Tamils of the north and east are stupid?
The elections we are talking about i.e 2001 and 2004 was when the TNA said the LTTE were the sole representatives of the Tamils. This was the main mandate.
You are presuming that the election mandates addressed several issues such as economy, employment etc as in most other countries that the Tamils in the NE had to decide on.
In actual fact the Tamils in these elections were only asked to vote on whether they supported the LTTE and its goals or not by voting for the TNA. For the Tamils in the N and E this was simple to decide on.
So even if as you say Anandasangaree and Douglas and other quislings campaigned for elections they would only have said what the GOSL wanted the Tamils to hear i.e anti Eelam and anti LTTE rhetoric. There was nothing else to campaign on which was politically important to the Tamils.
In actual fact Anandasangaree, Douglas and cohorts were able to campaign in Jaffna amongst the 750 000 Tamil population because of the tight security provided by the high security zones and 40 000 SL troops stationed there. Even then they received a meagre vote count in Jaffna.
So your arguments don’t stand. The issue that the Tamils were voting on was very simple. Either vote for the LTTE or vote for the GOSL. Hardly complicated.
Tamils know their recent history and they remember all the injustices by the GOSL. They also know full well who is genuinely fighting for their rights and how is being paid to confuse them. Even if all these quislings had or had not campaigned the Tamils of the N and E would choose to vote for the LTTE any day.
The GOSL and anti Eelam elements cannot pull the wool over the eyes of the Tamils using these dead beat quisling groups. The Tamils have learnt their lesson and fully back their freedom fighters. They have showed that in all the possible democratic ways since the first Pongu Tamil in army controlled Jaffna in 2000 and in three general elections.
P.S You are still ignoring the democratic decison of Tamils in the Vaddukoddai resolution and 1977 elections, the burden of which the LTTE have taken on themselves to implement both politically and militarily.
“In actual fact Anandasangaree, Douglas and cohorts were able to campaign in Jaffna amongst the 750 000 Tamil population because of the tight security provided by the high security zones and 40 000 SL troops stationed there. Even then they received a meagre vote count in Jaffna. So your arguments don’t stand. The issue that the Tamils were voting on was very simple. Either vote for the LTTE or vote for the GOSL. Hardly complicated.”
THIS is your idea of democracy?
Have a policy of killing ALL dissidents, (even ones that believe in the same end-objective), force the remaining dissident minnows to seek protection of the enemy, make a legitimate party a pawn of your organisation by assassinating their leader (TULF- Neelan Thiruchelvam), prevent anyone from voting in elections that you don’t think they should vote in, and when you do let them vote and they vote OF THEIR OWN FREE AND UNFETTERED WILL for your pawn party, you claim that it was democratic.
“Are you saying the Tamils of the north and east are stupid?”
Do they think the LTTE is democratic? The answer is the same.
Ravana, the Tamils both on the island and in the diaspora want their homeland of Tamil Eelam where they can live peacefully and pursue their own economic and social policies independently.
After 6 years of peace process we have realised that we alone must win our rights. During the 6 years of peace talks several hundred thousand Tamils still languished in refugee camps, youth were shot dead or disapeared, democratically elected Tamils were killed with the tacit approval of the GOSL, Tamil journalist were killed. All this misery in the N and E while the south and Colombo remained peaceful and developed the econmoy. The international community also turned a blind eye to all the above stated Tamil suffering. It was as if Tamil suffering can be put on hold and that it didn’t really matter in the big picture of things.
So at the end of 2006 in most Tamils opinion the answer to your question is we would anyday prefer, in your words, an “undemocratic LTTE”, which can obtain and safeguard our rights and Tamil Eelam homeland in an ever dangerous, duplicitous and heartless world.
First of all, your claaim that the diasporaa wants a Tamil state where they can live is nonsense. I have many friends and relatives among the ‘diaspora’, and they have no intention of coming back to live in the NE. Most of them are from southern SL, and are now happily settled where they are. The diaspora might want a separate state for the NE Tamil poulation and as revenge for apst grieves, but they will no more come live in it than they will send their children to fight for it.
But that’s all beside the point, Jey. What Ravana & I both have asked you (and you’ve avoided answering) is how the Tamil cause is served by the LTTE attacking other Tamil separatist groups and murdering their leaders? The GoSL didn’t tell those groups “ally with us or die”, the LTTE said “leave or die.” How is that in the interest of the Tamil people and their aspirations?
davey, stop thinking the tamils you know are the tamils we’re talking about…
Subjective arguments don’t hold water, nutty. Saying ‘I know the people, you don’t’ is just your word against mine.
so, is the shelling of civilians policy…
you see the photo feed on kottu?
http://kottu.org/
this is the link in case they arent “on top” still
http://www.flickr.com/photos/arjunan
some pictures of vaharai shelling…
this is the second time isn’t it…?
how many more til we can ascertain it is a policy????
No, shelling civilians isn’t GoSL policy anymore this weekend’s shelling of the school by the LTTE. How ’bout some pix of that while you’re about it.
Well Nuts the guy who took those pictures certainly seems to have gotten close to the action. And the TRO nurses are dressed very ‘uniformly’ I must say. Good thing he was on hand with his camera when the shelling happened. Just randomly. Perchance. It’s good that he’s on the scene and able to be objective about things.
Sorry that should’ve read “anymore than this weekend’s shelling of the school”.
“how many more til we can ascertain it is a policy???? ”
Dunno. How many more do you need?
i’m sorry sophist, i’m not sure what your point is…
there are pics (as the one at the top of this blog) after the incidents in colombo or the sinhala school aren’t there… despite the efforts of the gosl there are digital cameras in LTTE controlled areas… when an incident occurrs people grab their cameras… just as some of indi’s friends did when the bomb went off on dickman’s…
what’s there to be objective of? the shells landed and they took pictures… the comments describe the situation in language that is reflected in the media… please quote the “unobjective” parts of those pics…
it seems that you all have one set of rules for yourselves and one for “them”
My point Ha Ha…is that the top of Dickman’s Road does not have the same accessibility problems as Vaharai does. It is more difficult to have a digicam handy in a place like this especially if you managed to get it through all the checkpoints. That must mean you are connected somewhere.
The comments reflect the situation as their author wants them to. And that is his prerogative. I call them unobjective because they make no mention of the ‘human shield’ argument ‘reflected in the media’. Also I’m well impressed with the TRO nurses uniforms. It won’t be long before the GoSL starts putting their nurses in uniform too.
Thanks for the link though…
i didn’t take the pics.
also the inaccessibility of the area is due to the GoSL AND NOT the LTTE…
reports from TRO state that there was no firing coming from the camps… and SLMM and ICRC were invited in the TRO press statement on Tamilnet to spend the night and certifiy that there was no firing…
but the GoSL won’t allow it…
by the way, the 600,000 in jaffna are human shields for the GoSL forces…
Since the TRO is part of the LTTE, there claims haave no credibility. However, are you saying thaat the TRO invited the SLMM & the ICRC before the actual shelling, or after? If before, why do this? Were they expecting the Army to shell that particular spot for some reason? If after, what’s the point bolting the door after the horse? The arty would have been moved. Taking TRO statements as fact is as silly as taking Army statements as fact.
As for the human shield claim in Jaffna, the Army doesn’t shell the Tigers from the midst of civilian settlements. Try and get a clue.
you’re a fucking moron blacker…
“TRO invited the SLMM & the ICRC before the actual shelling, or after? If before, why do this? Were they expecting the Army to shell that particular spot for some reason? If after, what’s the point bolting the door after the horse? The arty would have been moved. ”
AFTER you stupid fuck, if you READ my post it mentioned a press release that was made after…
As to the closing the door after the horse… so far there have been two icidents with 40 plus being killed each time… the FUCKING point you dirtbag MORON, uneducated piece of shit, is so that the next time your fucking SLA goons do this there will be WITNESSES of the GOSL atrocities…
Why do you think the SLMM isn’t allowed access, and iNGOs haven’t been allowed up there since august, and why the ICRC and UN are only allowed for 4 hours to vaharai OCCASIONALLY… you really think that these organizations support the LTTE…??? if you do you’re a bigger moron than i thought…
THE GOSL restricts them SO THAT THERE IS NO INDEPENDANT VERIFICATION OF THE ATROCITIES OF THE GOSL FORCES… the LTTE is welcoming and insisting on the presence of the SLMM and int’l orgs…
TRO is not a part of the LTTE.
And the SLA in Jaffna DOES hide behind the civilians in jaffna…
you get a clue you fucking dip shit…
Hahahahaha. Forgot your medication again, didn’t you?
So you’re trying to tell me that the LTTE was dumb enough to think the ICRC are a bunch of idiots? That they wouldn’t know that the Tiger arty (whatever was left after the Army counterstrike) would have been moved. No wonder you buggers are looking like idiots worldwide. The ICRC has quite some experience with terrorists and after that ‘orphanage’ incident, knows when it’s being made use of.
Funny that there are never any credible witnesses to these ‘atrocities’, eh? Sad.
Is it because the LTTE is welcoming and insisting on the SLMM presence that they’ve threatened them? Very welcoming, that. That’s the sort of hospitality that’ll bring ‘em flocking in. Would you like some mortars with your lobster, sir?
The TRO and the TNA are both branches of the LTTE, and it’s the reason why the former has been prevented from gathering funds in Europe.
“And the SLA in Jaffna DOES hide behind the civilians in jaffna…”
Any evidence? Thought not.
And profanity is the last refuge of the dimwitted.
no, that’s sarcasm fuck nut… sarcasm is the last refuge of the witless
FACT: the GOSL doesn’t allow the internation orgs into vaharai…
Why didn’t you address that did you, you stupid fuck… because you know it true that the govt don’t want any witnesses in those areas…
dipshit, the fact that the army is in jaffna is evidence that they are using the civilians as sheilds… why do you think the LTTE slowed down after they took elephant pass… because of the fear of civilian causualties…
so you don’t think that the shelling of civilians is an atrocity…?
YOU know that the SLA shells them because they want to get them moving to govt controlled areas… and out of LTTE controlled areas…
there is no firing from the camps… don’t buy the govt propaganda… they lie… what independant verification do you have of “the alleged firing from the camps…:? NONE so shut your mouth, the stink of cum is overwhelming…
FACT: LTTE wants the SLMM to come to vaharai
FACT: the LTTE wants the SLMM to come to Muhammalai
why doesn’t the govt let reporters into vaharai or vanni???
i know they all want to go and will take responsibilty for themselves… why govt won’t allow it…???
you bastards are so fucking dirty it makes me sick…
God, this gets better by the minute. Try pulling your panties out of your butt, Haha, its making your voice squeaky. Any proof of these ‘facts’? Repetition doesn’t make it true.
You really think shelling civilians makes them move? Haven’t been anywhere near a shell have you? When you shell civilians they go to ground and the casualties have to be taken caare of. That’s what the LTTE wants, and why they use refugee areas to fire from.
“there is no firing from the camps… don’t buy the govt propaganda… they lie…”
Ah, we should believe an idiot called Haha instead? Brilliant line of argument.
“what independant verification do you have of “the alleged firing from the camps…:? ”
What independent verification do we have that ANY civilians were killed at Vaharai? If no NGOs were allowed in we have only Tiger propoganda saying so.
Did I say it wasn’t? Don’t you think the Tiger shelling of those schools was an atrocity too?
Please do continue, we’re rapidly getting an insight into the Tamil mind here.
are you a complete and utter dumb fuck???
read something other than the Daily News and you KNOW that no international NGOs or the SLMM or the international press are allowed into Vaharai or the Vanni… do you want me to go and copy and paste the links to the statements and articles… you stupid fuck, clean the cum outta your eyes and read…
“What independent verification do we have that ANY civilians were killed at Vaharai? If no NGOs were allowed in we have only Tiger propoganda saying so.”
ICRC was eventually allowed in and reported that ALL the causalties were civilians…
“You really think shelling civilians makes them move? ”
OK you “military genius”… let’s see, hmmmmm, now why did all the civilians move away from Muttur, Sampoor, and most recently from areas of inland southern trinco to KantalAI (not the colonized name KantalE)…? was it because they were being shelled…? no, according to the military (unemployed) genius David the cum sucker, if they were being shelled they’d “go to ground”… you stupid piece of shit…
they were shelled so they moved… the govt wants the tamils to leave the LTTE controlled areas… thus they starve them and shell them… if you believe otherwise you naive…
as to the alleged firing from the camps:
ONLY the govt says that there was firing…
everyone else says there wasn’t…
how to solve this…?
let SLMM in to interview people…
or INDEPENDANT reporters… not you local mouthpiece media…
real journalist…
but then the GOSL would be shown up for what it is…
“ICRC was eventually allowed in and reported that ALL the causalties were civilians…”
Ah, so you LIED when you said “FACT: the GOSL doesn’t allow the internation orgs into vaharai…”. Can’t have it both ways, Punday.
What’s with all the cum-fantasies, dude? I know that’s a Tiger speciality, what with all the no-marriage/small boys scenario, but do you need to display paedophelia online?
Which reminds me of a story y’all might enjoy. Back in ’91, my No1 and I were watching an area through scopes where a chopper had spotted movement. Saw some people moving about, and after a bit we realised it was a Tiger mine-laying party. So we watched through scopes and binos so that we could mark the area on a map. After some time they stopped for tea. It was about 600m. The mine-layers were all small boys, with an adult Tiger in charge. After a bit, the guy pulls one of the small fellows off behind some scrub and starts raping him. The boy’s struggling like shit, but hasn’t a chance. Pissed me off, so I wanted to take the shot. But my No1 wouldn’t let me cos he wanted them to finish the mining. Besides, with the kid thrashing about, I hadn’t a shot. After a while the kid gives up, and Tiger gets down to business. So I take the shot anyway and catch him under the shoulder, and blow him right off the kid. My No1′s pissed cos I opened fire, but what to do. Meanwhile the kid’s off and running, without his trousers even. My No1 nails him with a head shot at 600m, the best I’ve ever seen on a running target. Then the rest of the kids panic and run straight into the mines. Two went up immediately. Then another adult appears on the scene and my No1 gets him too. We called mortars in on what was left. Had my cigarette ration cut for that.
If you weren’t retarded, you’d know that the civilians in the Trinco and Kantale areas moved back INTO GoSL territory, AWAY from the shelling and the Tigers (you’ll notice the emphasis that’ll help you with the tough English words). So why would the GoSL want to drive the Tamil civilians AWAY from the GoSL lines and TOWARDS the LTTE? Hmmm? Take your time and get up a good mouthful before you spew. Only the LTTE would want the Tamils dependent on the LTTE.
So how long did it take to remove all the uniforms off the Vaharai ‘civilians’ and dress them in Levis?
yesterday over 1500 IDPs arrived in valaichennai…
you see david…
govt shelled civilians
civilians had nowhere to go…
civilans MOVED as a result of the shelling to GOSL controlled areas…
the GOSL strategy is to shelling the civilians to get them moving out of vaharai to GOSL controlled areas…
you notice that the GOSL isn’t shelling Batti… or valaichennai or Trinco… but are shelling the Vaharai IDPs… it’s a bit like the GOSL is trying to “herd” the IDPs with the use of multibarrel rockets
you get it now davey…???
dimwit
I think it’s you who’s being dimwitted (or downright dumb) if you think the result proves the intention. Yesterday the LTTE mortared an STF camp, missed, and took out three civilian houses. So was the intention to destroy civilian houses, just because that was the result? The Tamil civilians are fleeing the fighting between the LTTE and the GoSL. If there are no LTTE amongst the Vaharai Tamils, why doesn’t the Army just move in and take the area and secure the civilians? Why go to all the trouble of wasting ammo, creating claims of human rights abuses, and killing civilians, just to move those civilians. Why move them?
And why would the Army shell Batti or Valachenai? There are no Tigers there.
I’d call you a dimwit again, but I’d probably be attributing more to you than the halfwittedness you’ve displayed upto now. And what’s with the constant namechanges? Coming back on with a new name doesn’t make it look like many people share your opinion. Unless they share your singular lack of argument.
david,
“I think it’s you who’s being dimwitted (or downright dumb) if you think the result proves the intention.”
wait a minute, wasn’t it you who said something about a series of events can been taken together to be a “policy”…?
“Yesterday the LTTE mortared an STF camp, missed, and took out three civilian houses”
Actually, that shows that the STF is using civilians as “human shields”
“If there are no LTTE amongst the Vaharai Tamils, why doesn’t the Army just move in and take the area and secure the civilians? ”
Hmmm, this shows how little you know about he NE and/or military situations. Do you know how far it is from the FDLs to Vaharai where the IDP camps are… lets just say far… there is no firing or LTTE camp near the IDP camps… ICRC, SLMM, and others verified this after they went up after the Nov 8 incident… so while the LTTE (non military, admin etc.) is everywhere in the NE (yes even gosl controlled areas) there is no military presence in the IDP camps…
“And what’s with the constant namechanges?”
indi blocks me sometimes… i think… whatever… it’s the words you need to respond to not the person…
“wait a minute, wasn’t it you who said something about a series of events can been taken together to be a “policyâ€â€¦?”
No, I didn’t. Go back and learn to read before thumping the keyboard. I said that if an overwhelming majority of incidents show a particular pattern of intent, a policy can be determined. You have not shown a pattern of intent. You are merely looking at the end result and citing motive and intent.
“Actually, that shows that the STF is using civilians as “human shields”
Tsk tsk, runnning away from the point again, arent’t we? I asked you if that result determines intent. Why not answer instead of opening a new topic. Actually, the one thing it does prove is that the Tigers are inept mortarmen — the houses were 600m beyond the STF camp. Even an inexperienced mortarman should be able to drop it in closer. Bit hard to hide behind someone who’s 600m away, eh?
“Do you know how far it is from the FDLs to Vaharai where the IDP camps are… ”
Er… what has distance to do with it? What is the purpose of moving civils out of Vaharai — if that’s your claim of Army intent? If there were no Tigers there, the Army wouldn’t care. That’s exactly why they’re not shelling Batti.
“there is no firing or LTTE camp near the IDP camps… ICRC, SLMM, and others verified this after they went up after the Nov 8 incident…”
As you said, the ICRC and SLMM visited periodically, they don’t have a regular presence. It’s pretty simple to move arty in and out to hide it from observers. What kind of idiot are you?
“What kind of idiot are you?”
indi, these are the comments that begin the sprial to comments about mothers… please censor equally…
for instant i might respond to david’s comments about what kind of idiot i am by saying something like:
“I’m the kind of idiot that your mother and sister…”
well you get the idea…
“As you said, the ICRC and SLMM visited periodically, they don’t have a regular presence. It’s pretty simple to move arty in and out to hide it from observers.”
you still haven’t cited any evidence that there was any firing… independant, international, corroberatted with evidence… until you have it, shut the fuck up bitch…
“Er… what has distance to do with it? What is the purpose of moving civils out of Vaharai — if that’s your claim of Army intent? If there were no Tigers there, the Army wouldn’t care. That’s exactly why they’re not shelling Batti.”
Distance is important because these IDPs are not close to any military assets or LTTE camps and are far from the FDL…
thus there is no reason to shell them, other than to get them to move out of LTTE controlled areas…
this is also why the GOSL is preventing food and medicine from going to vaharai… to starve out the IDPs and get them to come to GOSL controlled areas… the last convoy that went to vaharai nov 29 had 110 odd trucks… the SLA only allowed 80 to go into vaharai and kept back 30 trucks loaded with food… 40 of the trucks that were allowed in had tents in them… UNHCR stated that the convoy only had 60% of the food necessary and this is now close to exhaustion…
“you still haven’t cited any evidence that there was any firing… independant, international, corroberatted with evidence… until you have it, shut the fuck up bitch…”
Well, you’ve already claimed that there were NO witnesses to ANY of the fighting, haven’t you? Not even to the Army shelling.
But anyway: “These cadres however are finding it difficult to move north of the A11 in support of their comrades now fighting in the Verugal-Vakarai region. Therefore it is expected that this formidable eastern LTTE force will strike elsewhere in the region to give some respite to their besieged comrades in Vakarai.”– from “Tigers Caged in Vakarai (http://www.tamilinsight.com/index.php?news=3766). The article cites other instances of heaavily entrenched LTTE units in the area.
“Distance is important because these IDPs are not close to any military assets or LTTE camps and are far from the FDL…”
Well, if the IDPs can move to Punani through the jungle, I think the Army caan manage to move into Vakarai without too much trouble. Especially since the nearest Army camp is in Valachchenai. The reason they haven’t is because of LTTE resistance. Are you claiming that there are NO Tigers in the Vakarai area?
“this is also why the GOSL is preventing food and medicine from going to vaharai…”
Actually, you’ll find it’s the other way about: “The convoy had been due to travel on Tuesday, but the journey was abandoned due to fierce artillery fire. The military said as the trucks passed by, rebels moved forward in the opposite direction.” — Source: Reuters (quoted on http://www.tamilnewsweb.com/Reuters_29thnov06.htm)
“thus there is no reason to shell them, other than to get them to move out of LTTE controlled areas…”
I thought you said there were no Tigers in Vakarai? How exactly are they ‘controlling’ the area then?
“to starve out the IDPs and get them to come to GOSL controlled areas… ”
Why bother? Can you give me one good reason why the Army would want IDPs moved from one place to the other? If the LTTE will allow the IDPs to leave, they can avoid the fighting (“Also over 30,000 people in ‘Vaharai’ are under house arrest, because the LTTE is not allowing them to go to a safe place” –http://www.groundviews.org/category/issues/human-security/)
“There was a reluctance to have a buffer stock [of food] in place due to fear of it being taken over by the LTTE” — Ms Sunila Abeysekara, Executive Director, INFORM Human Rights Documentation Centre (http://www.forum-asia.org/news/in_the_news/pdfs/Vakarai-Valaichchenai_report.pdf).
Did you say the GoSL was restricting the food movements?
“Both the LTTE and the Karuna group seem to be active in the [Valachenai] area.” — Also from the above report, showing a pattern of Tamil terrorist activity within the IDP areas.
tried to repond to this twice but they ain’t posting… prob b/c of multiple links…
but you bore me now…
suffice to say… you are a moron and you haven’t not been able to prove that ANY shelling came from the IDP camps… end of argument…
peace
Trincomalee political head, S Elilan, had taken the ICRC representative for Batticaloa, Ms Kashesi Maryam, to the refugee welfare centres in Vaharai as early as mid-October 2006. Elilan gave the ICRC representative the coordinates of these centres and requested that they be treated as safe-haven. The welfare centres identified by Elilan to Maryam are the surrounds of, Vaharai hospital, Vammivadduvan school, Patchenai school, Kathiraveli school and Veruhal temple. Ms Kashesi Maryam had given these coordinates to the SLA and had requested that these locations be treated as safe-havens. This fact was then relayed back to Elilan by the ICRC representative Maryam.
Indeed the 89 civilian deaths in Vaharai since then caused by Sri Lankan artillery fire were exactly in these locations whose coordinates were given to the SLA by Elilan through the ICRC representative.
source: http://www.ltteps.org/?view=1806&folder=2
Ha ha ha, you quote an LTTE website???? Is THAT the best you can do? At what age did mum realise you were retarded? As you said, “credible” sources, please. What happened to your famous “google it” advice? Pehaps I should quote SPUR then? Ha ha ha.
Actually, you’ll find it’s the other way about: “The convoy had been due to travel on Tuesday, but the journey was abandoned due to fierce artillery fire. The military said as the trucks passed by, rebels moved forward in the opposite direction.†— Source: Reuters (quoted on http://www.tamilnewsweb.com/Reuters_29thnov06.htm)
you stupid cunt, indi hasn’t let it through but i pointed the quote above is from the GOSL… i’d say the LTTE is more reliable AND you can confirm what is said there with ICRC… go ahead and call ‘em you once you take your dick outta your mom’s ass
Hahahhahha. The GoSL is quoted by Reuters on a TAMIL site, and you still won’t accept it. Cool, man. All you can quote is Tamilselvam on an LTTE site (guess no one else but you’ll believe him). Yeah, I just called the ICRC and they said its not true, that you were dumb retard and that they were on their way over to gangbang you and your mum. Wanted to know whether to bring vaseline.
Ha ha ha. Good one. I’ve quoted Reuters AND Tamil News Web, and you quote an LTTE site. Guess no one else believes Demalasilva. If you want ‘independent’ sources, please quote them yourself. I can easily give you ‘evidence’ from SPUR if you like, or the Defence Ministry.
Oh, and I called the ICRC and they said both you and Demalasilva are full of shit. They also said they were on their way over to gangbang you and your mum. Wanted to know whether they should bring vaseline.
david, david, david,
Reuters & TamilNews web QUOTING the Sri Lankan military… NEITHER Reuters nor the Tamilnews web validated the quote or stated that it was true…
do you see the subtlies?
is it that difficult for you?
do you understand the difference between REUTERS or TAMILNEWSWEB stating that they saw or validated some thing and the defence ministry or the military spokesperson stating something…?
it’s as subtle as a sledgehammer but most of us can see the difference…
some defence puppet saying something and the reuters quoting it and the reuters independantly verifying something…
you woulda learned that in the 1st year of uni if you’d been smart enough to get in…
Whining AGAIN? Aww. You asked for credible sources, and it was provided. NOW you want to specify the contents of those sources? Ha ha. Why don’t you say that ALL my sources must be paid for and supported by the LTTE (like your sources) just to make it easy.
I’m still waiting for the evidence to your statements.
Oh, and cleaning toilets in uni isn’t considered actually being IN uni, awomanaponneya, even if you did it from the age of 10.
You may think we’re debating before a great audience, but we’re not. It’s just you & me, and we both know you’re an idiot. So either put up the evidence (credible, neutral, recognised sources), and we’ll talk. If not, I’ll let you tallk to yourself.
moron, any idiot knows that the GOSL wants the civilians to come to batti or back up to muttur…
ICRC and UN are allowed in for about 4 hours a day a few times a week – hugely different than staying the night or having unlimited access…
and international NGOrganisations are NOT ALLOWED ANY ACCESS…
as for your the fantasay you describe above… save it for your next book… we all know it’s a fantasy cooked up in your head… hahaha… if the GOSL forces were as good as in your book, the war woulda been over a long time ago…
“moron, any idiot knows that the GOSL wants the civilians to come to batti or back up to muttur…”
Hmm, I’m glad you’ve identified yourself and your thought process, Haha. What took you so long? So you’re saying Tamil civilians always throw themselves on the mercy of those killing them? Hmm, strange breed, but then I guess since you continue to live under the Tigers who are destroying your ‘homelaand’, it shouldn’t be surprising. That’s if we could believe you. But since you one minute claim that NGOs aren’t allowed in, then claim the next that they are witnesses, it’s obvious you’re aa bit confused, to put it mildly, and probably haave never been north of Chilaw. I’ve found that civilians will go to ground until their casualties are taken care of, and then flee AWAY from those killing them, not TOWARDS them.
As for the GoSL forces being good or bad, it’s all relative. What’s up with you buggers? 25 years and you still can’t knock off a tin-pot 3rd world government! The bloody JVP did better than you wankers. They’re smarter too; they’re in parliament and managing to create waves. You lot are stuck up in the jungle dying, while your leaders send their kids to school in foreign countries and send the Tamil children out to die. And y’all still think WE are the enemy. Haha, you chose your pseudonym right. You ARE a joke, machang.
“So you’re saying Tamil civilians always throw themselves on the mercy of those killing them?”
Are you thick? Slow learner? Or just being obtuse for the fun of it? Let me explain it for you my friend.
The Vaharai area is relatively small and there are 45,000 plus IDPs there.
The govt wishes to isolate the LTTE. They are thus shelling civilians so that the civilian population will leave.
The civilians, due to the shelling being targeted at them make the decision the next day or a few days later to move. In the short term the feel that the GOSL areas will be safer because the shells from the GOSL aren’t hitting batti or Valaichenai, and once in those areas they will be able to be “attended” to by the international NGOs and the ICRC who have access to the GOSL controlled areas and not the LTTE controlled areas.
So while the risk of abuse, harassment, disappearance, extra-judicial killing is more in the GOSL controlled areas it is not as dangerous as getting blown to bits by a shell. Got it?
As far as which side the civilians feel more comfortable living under… over 10,000 left Jaffna for the vanni at the beginning of the year due to the harassment by the SLA.
“But since you one minute claim that NGOs aren’t allowed in, then claim the next that they are witnesses, it’s obvious you’re aa bit confused”
International NGOs ARE NOT allowed into LTTE controlled areas. Yes i stated that they are independent, 3rd party, neutral witnesses AND THAT IS WHY THE GOSL WON’T LET THEM IN… why can’t you understand that???
where did i ever say that the had witnessed the events??? Being a potential reliable witness (noun) and witnessing an event (verb) are two different things dumbass. you get it… so i stated that if the iNGOs were allowed in the would be able to bear witness, but because they aren’t allowed in there are NO international witnesses.
AFP: “Journalists have not been allowed into the troubled area and access for relief workers has also been seriously curtailed, making it difficult to independently verify the situation.” http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20061213/wl_sthasia_afp/srilankaunrestdisplaced_061213142429
and you, i hope realize that the UN, ICRC and SLMM ARE NOT international NGOs??? that’s just a basic thing most people know, but i’m sorry if i assumed you knew that…
So when i state that international NGOs are not allow into LTTE controlled areas it is a TRUE statement because even though UN and ICRC are allowed intermittent access they CAN NOT “overnight” in the areas and they aren’t NGOs.
UN Inter-Agency Standing Committee Report: “Progress is going as planned in cleared areas. However ICRC and the UN are still the only agencies given access to uncleared areas.” http://www.humanitarianinfo.org/srilanka/catalogue/Files/Info%20Centre/Situation%20Reports/IASC%20-%20Inter-Agency%20Standing%20Committee%20Country%20Team/SR_Sri_Lanka_NorthEast_Daily_Situation_Report_24_20060901.pdf
The MOD started a “work permit” process for iNGOs international staff, this is IN ADDITION to the “work VISAs” that THEY ALREADY HAVE.
FACT: NO international NGO staff have been given work permits for LTTE controlled areas of the NE.
UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) Sri Lanka – “Protection Report: September 2006″
*”The activities of NGOs have been seriously curtailed by the travel restrictions and the work permit issue. Some areas of the district remain off-limits for humanitarian agencies…”
*”…humanitarian access to Vaharai is severely curtailed and limited to ICRC and UN agencies only, with the endorsement of the GA and clearance from the SLA.”
*”The government has also placed severe restrictions on humanitarian assistance allowed into Vaharai, including building materials, tents, medical supplies and fuel. There is a serious lack of shelter for IDPs, most of whom are either living in school buildings or under the trees in the jungle.”
*”NGOs in Batticaloa face serious restrictions on their movements and continuing problems with work and travel permits. NGOs are prohibited from entering LTTE controlled areas in Batticaloa district. ”
http://72.14.235.104/search?q=cache:tZSvtGzW_okJ:www.internal-displacement.org/8025708F004CE90B/(httpDocuments)/33B1A963EABDE281C12572180039C669/%24file/Protection%2BReport%2BSeptember%2B2006%2Bext%2Bversion%2B2_.doc+work+permits+for+NGOS+access+to+vaharai+LTTE+controlled+areas&hl=en&gl=uk&ct=clnk&cd=2
“I’ve found that civilians will go to ground until their casualties are taken care of, and then flee AWAY from those killing them, not TOWARDS them.”
What about when there is NO WHERE TO FLEE, as in Vaharai???
The whole area is under attack and if you want to get away from it you have to move away from the area the SLA wants to occupy… can’t you understand that??? to get away from the shelling the IDPs must go to GOSL territory…
Well, if the ICRC and the SLMM cannot overnight in LTTE territory, it’s because the Tigers have threatened them and quite clearly said that they will not guarantee their safety. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
The reason the civilians in Vaharai are exposed to shelling is because the Tigers are encamped in their midst and using them as a shield to fire at the Army. If the LTTE is so concerned about the civils they shouldn’t be in the midst of thousands of IDPs in such a small area. And Tamil civilians ffrom Vaharai HAVE claimed the LTTE fired from the area. So there ARE witnesses, Tamil ones.
The LTTE is looking for a propoganda coup, but is underestimating the intelligence of the ICRC and the SLMM. The ICRC obviously doesn’t want to be used as human shields anymore than the civils.There’s no point your splitting hairs over who am NGO is or is not, because in this context they’re all independent witnesses, and that’s what you want, isn’t it? AFTER the event. Why else does the LTTE refuse to have SLMM observers aboard Sea Tiger boats? If the LTTE is serious about witnesses, open the ENTIRE northeast to the ICRC and the SLMM, not to selected areas. The reason the GoSL doesn’t allow it is because it is selective.
“Well, if the ICRC and the SLMM cannot overnight in LTTE territory, it’s because the Tigers have threatened them and quite clearly said that they will not guarantee their safety.”
Please provide a link to your source on this… it is not true.
The LTTE only stated that they could not guarantee the monitors safety because the GOSL bombs and shells LTTE territory and the LTTE have no control over that.
2 incidents prove this:
1) poonery: where the SLA was told that SLMM was going to be in the area and could SEE the SLMM and shelled them
2) the sluice gate: again the SLMM notified the SLA that it would be in the area and they were shelled…
THIS is what the LTTE mean when they say they “can’t gaureentee their saftey…” How do you expect the LTTE to stop the GOSL form attacking…?
“The reason the civilians in Vaharai are exposed to shelling is because the Tigers are encamped in their midst and using them as a shield to fire at the Army.”
Please site your source on this. And please don’t insult our intelligence by spouting the propagada of the GOSL. Please cite an INDEPENDANT SOURCE: ie. INTERNATIONAL reporter (not local) or INTERNATIONAL organization.
Please cite the source for this also: “And Tamil civilians ffrom Vaharai HAVE claimed the LTTE fired from the area. So there ARE witnesses, Tamil ones.”
Again, not GOSL, local reporter or local organization… i have not faith in any of the previous mentioned…
“The LTTE is looking for a propoganda coup, but is underestimating the intelligence of the ICRC and the SLMM. The ICRC obviously doesn’t want to be used as human shields anymore than the civils.”
What does this mean? The SLMM, ICRC, and UN would like to be in Vaharai and to have UNHINDERED ACCESS to the area – the GOSL IS NOT ALLOWING THEM TO GO THERE at will and WILL NOT LET THEM OVERNIGHT there… if allowed by the GOSL they WOULD STAY there… but then the GOSL couldn’t shell the civilians becuase there would be witness…
“There’s no point your splitting hairs over who am NGO is or is not, because in this context they’re all independent witnesses, and that’s what you want, isn’t it? AFTER the event.”
I’m not splitting hairs… these organizations are defined in international law/common sense.
I want these organizations there as witnesses… do you understand that concept…? I wanted them there before the event and i want them to be there TO PREVENT THE NEXT SHELLING… now i want them there to investigate the 10 dec incident.
“The reason the GoSL doesn’t allow it is because it is selective.”
OH, so you DO admit that the GOSL doesn’t allow SLMM in…? What are they trying to hide…? The SLMM is independant and is quoted by you people when it rules in your favor and then they’re the “white tigers” when they criticize the GOSL…
you people are tooooo much…
I’ve started moderating comments on this thread cause they’re degenerating into attacks on peoples mothers. Please try to avoid personal attacks, it spirals and makes the debate worthless fast
Come on, Dave, get your facts right… The ltte did not refuse to have slmm monitors on its boats. in fact, slmm monitors refused in the first place to travel on sea tiger boats (i believe because, legally, the se tigers are not a recognized navy)… you remember the incident with the troop carrier which was saved by the presence of one single finnsih monitor ? that was why the ltte asked the slmm to either be present on their boats as well or stop to be present on navy boats. and the ltte never said that they could not guarantee the security of slmm personell, they said that after the ban they could not guarantee the safety of eu- citizens. as you should be aware, there are no eu-citizens anymore in the slmm…
The LTTE deemed it ‘unnecessary’ for SLMM personnel to be on Sea Tiger boats because according to the CFA (which the LTTE agreed to), any Seat Tiger movement is banned. The LTTE also did not tell the SLMM that it could board ANY and ALL Sea Tiger craft, but select ones on select mission (ie training missions). I don’t know where you heard that the SLMM won’t board Tiger craft because they’re not a proper navy. They’re not a proper anything for that matter. Whenever the SLMM requested access to Sea Tiger craft, they were told that none were on operational duty. Which was my point. If the LTTE genuinely wants independent witnesses, it will open the entire NE to the SLMM. It does not. It merely wants propoganda value. So it selects specific areas where it wants attention. Whining about a lack witnesses is pointless if you won’t let those witnesses have free reign. So getting miffed when the ICRC & SLMM won’t coorperate just shows a lack of sense.
As for whether the LTTE threatened the SLMM or just its EU personnel is a moot point since at the time the SLMM was almost entirely staffed by EU citizens. Sort of like threatening only the Tamils among the LTTE.
“Well, if the ICRC and the SLMM cannot overnight in LTTE territory, it’s because the Tigers have threatened them and quite clearly said that they will not guarantee their safety.”
Please provide a link to your source on this… it is not true.
The LTTE only stated that they could not guarantee the monitors safety because the GOSL bombs and shells LTTE territory and the LTTE have no control over that.
2 incidents prove this:
1) poonery: where the SLA was told that SLMM was going to be in the area and could SEE the SLMM and shelled them
2) the sluice gate: again the SLMM notified the SLA that it would be in the area and they were shelled…
THIS is what the LTTE mean when they say they “can’t gaureentee their saftey…” How do you expect the LTTE to stop the GOSL form attacking…?
“The reason the civilians in Vaharai are exposed to shelling is because the Tigers are encamped in their midst and using them as a shield to fire at the Army.”
Please site your source on this. And please don’t insult our intelligence by spouting the propagada of the GOSL. Please cite an INDEPENDANT SOURCE: ie. INTERNATIONAL reporter (not local) or INTERNATIONAL organization.
Please cite the source for this also: “And Tamil civilians ffrom Vaharai HAVE claimed the LTTE fired from the area. So there ARE witnesses, Tamil ones.”
Again, not GOSL, local reporter or local organization… i have not faith in any of the previous mentioned…
“The LTTE is looking for a propoganda coup, but is underestimating the intelligence of the ICRC and the SLMM. The ICRC obviously doesn’t want to be used as human shields anymore than the civils.”
What does this mean? The SLMM, ICRC, and UN would like to be in Vaharai and to have UNHINDERED ACCESS to the area – the GOSL IS NOT ALLOWING THEM TO GO THERE at will and WILL NOT LET THEM OVERNIGHT there… if allowed by the GOSL they WOULD STAY there… but then the GOSL couldn’t shell the civilians becuase there would be witness…
“There’s no point your splitting hairs over who am NGO is or is not, because in this context they’re all independent witnesses, and that’s what you want, isn’t it? AFTER the event.”
I’m not splitting hairs… these organizations are defined in international law/common sense.
I want these organizations there as witnesses… do you understand that concept…? I wanted them there before the event and i want them to be there TO PREVENT THE NEXT SHELLING… now i want them there to investigate the 10 dec incident.
“The reason the GoSL doesn’t allow it is because it is selective.”
OH, so you DO admit that the GOSL doesn’t allow SLMM in…? What are they trying to hide…? The SLMM is independant and is quoted by you people when it rules in your favor and then they’re the “white tigers” when they criticize the GOSL…
you people are tooooo much…
Well what do you know……..
The United Nations called on Sri Lanka’s rebels to let tens of thousands of Tamil civilians flee an area that has been battered by heavy fighting.
Refugees who managed to flee the area on Friday by sea told The Associated Press that they were held forcibly by Tamil Tiger rebels but managed to sneak out while the guerrillas were distracted during artillery and gunfire exchanges with government troops.
They spoke on condition of anonymity, fearing reprisals.
http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/001200612160951.htm
this article says nothing about there being any shelling from the IDP camps towards GOSL targets… what’s your point in including it here?
Well, it claims that LTTE held the IDPs captive, so since they probably didn’t use telekinesis, it probably was through physical presence. So it refutes your lie that there is no LTTE presence amongst the IDPs. We have already established there there are no witnesses (acceptable to you) to the act of firing.
You have still failed to establish a credible motive for the GoSL firing on civilians. Do you have any credible witnesses who can cite this as a deliberate act?
I’ve asked you before and you’ve avoided the question. Do you still claim that there are no LTTE units in the Vakarai area?
there are LTTE personnel, administrative, health, social, etc. through out the NorthEast…
We were discussing your and the GOSL’s claim that there was firing coming ffrom the IDP camps or LTTE camps or units in the IDP camps…
this is not so… i will state it again becuase i understand you’re a little “simple”:
1) there was no firing from the IDP camps
2) there are no LTTE units in the IDP camps
3) there are no LTTE camps near the IDP camps
the shelling of the IDP camps came from 3 directions: south of vaharai, west of vaharai and from the sea IT WAS TARGETED SHELLING OF THE IDP CAMPS.
As to the allegation of the LTTE stopping the IDPs from moving – if true there may be a number of reasons… safety etc.
As of today though the IDPs are moving to valachenai in order to get away from the GOSL shelling…
“The LTTE only stated that they could not guarantee the monitors safety because the GOSL bombs and shells LTTE territory and the LTTE have no control over that.”
Whatever the reason, they’ve said it, haven’t they? As you’ve just admitted. The SLMM is quite aware that there’s a war on and that no one’s safety is guaranteed. But when it is pointedly stated that the lives of a particular group of nationals (EU citizens) cannot be guaranteed, it’s an implied threat. Why only the EU citizens? Do Army shells miraculously avoid non-EU citizens? You tell me not to insult your intelligence, but statements such as that, make me doubt your intelligence.
“2 incidents prove this:
1) poonery: where the SLA was told that SLMM was going to be in the area and could SEE the SLMM and shelled them
2) the sluice gate: again the SLMM notified the SLA that it would be in the area and they were shelled…”
Remember the incident where the two SLMM monitors had to jump overboard when the Sea Tiger boat they forcibly boarded blew itself up? Are you saying that was beyond the LTTE’s responsibilities? Or the attempt to sink a Navy transport which had a Finnish monitor on board?
““The reason the civilians in Vaharai are exposed to shelling is because the Tigers are encamped in their midst and using them as a shield to fire at the Army.â€
Please site your source on this.”
I hope the Hindu (quoted above by Sam) is independent enough for you.
“What does this mean? The SLMM, ICRC, and UN would like to be in Vaharai and to have UNHINDERED ACCESS to the area ”
Correction — the above would like to have unhindered access to ALL AREAS of the NE, not just Vaharai, but it is the LTTE that restricts this access. The GoSL restricts access because the LTTE permission is given in a selective manner. If the LTTE opens the NE in its entirety, you’ll find the GoSL acceding as well. Why doesn’t the LTTE open the NE — because that will open up their human rights abuses to worldwide attention.
“I’m not splitting hairs… these organizations are defined in international law/common sense.”
I am aware of that, which is why I used the words ‘in this context’. Perhaps I should explain with smaller words. Whether the international witnesses are from the UN or an INGO matters very little in this context, because they are both credible witnesses. So splitting hairs and telling me the ICRC isn’t an NGO is beside the point. The point is, all the foreign personnel are credible witnesses and it matters not which body they come from.
“I want these organizations there as witnesses… do you understand that concept…? I wanted them there before the event and i want them to be there TO PREVENT THE NEXT SHELLING…”
If you want them there as witnesses, lobby the LTTE to give unfettered access to the ENTIRE northeast, not just to selective areas like Vaharai. If you want the shelling of civilians to stop, tell the LTTE to move out of the area and away from the Tamil civilians. Having SLMM or ICRC personnel amongst the Tigers and civilians WON’T stop the shelling (I myself have watched MSF medics being shelled while they worked on LTTE casualties in the ’90s). The Tigers will be shelled, if they choose to hide behind civilians, sadly they’ll be shelled too.
“OH, so you DO admit that the GOSL doesn’t allow SLMM in…?”
No, I don’t. I was talking about the ICRC, UNHCR, etc. Can’t you read? The GoSL is well within its rights to prevent these groups going into an area that is deemed dangerous. However, I admit they’re probably doing so in this instance to counter the Tiger attempt to create propoganda value through the latter ‘managing’ these visits.
As far as I know, the SLMM hasn’t been prevented from visiting Vaharai.
“Whatever the reason, they’ve said it, haven’t they?”
You still refuse to cite your references… please do so if you want to support your argument… otherwise you’re just talking out yer ass…
“2 incidents prove this:
1) poonery: where the SLA was told that SLMM was going to be in the area and could SEE the SLMM and shelled them
2) the sluice gate: again the SLMM notified the SLA that it would be in the area and they were shelled…â€
Remember the incident where the two SLMM monitors had to jump overboard when the Sea Tiger boat they forcibly boarded blew itself up? Are you saying that was beyond the LTTE’s responsibilities? Or the attempt to sink a Navy transport which had a Finnish monitor on board?
yet again you don’t respond to my statement but instead go off on a tangent… did the GOSL target the SLMM monitors so they wouldn’t open the sluice gate or examine poonery???
““The reason the civilians in Vaharai are exposed to shelling is because the Tigers are encamped in their midst and using them as a shield to fire at the Army.â€
Please site your source on this.â€
I hope the Hindu (quoted above by Sam) is independent enough for you.
Did you read the Hindu article? There is NO mention of any LTTE firing from the IDP camps All it says is that the LTTE allegedly wouldn’t allow the IDPs to leave. Maybe it was too dangerous at the time??? Who know’s???
You still have not cited a SINGLE INDEPENDANT SOURCE THAT SAYS THAT THE LTTE FIRED FROM THE IDP CAMPS which is how the GOSL is justifying the targeted shelling of civilians The is still no evidence that the LTTE fired from the camps.
“What does this mean? The SLMM, ICRC, and UN would like to be in Vaharai and to have UNHINDERED ACCESS to the area â€
” If the LTTE opens the NE in its entirety, you’ll find the GoSL acceding as well.
This statement of yours admits that the GOSL is restricting access…
“I’m not splitting hairs… these organizations are defined in international law/common sense.â€
“The point is, all the foreign personnel are credible witnesses and it matters not which body they come from.”
True, that is why the GOSL is limiting their access to the vanni and vaharai… INGOs can’t go… and you know as well as i do that the ICRC and UN are under completely different mandates than the INGOs… the UN & ICRC are restricted in what they can say… you should hear the stories i hear from them…
“If you want the shelling of civilians to stop, tell the LTTE to move out of the area and away from the Tamil civilians.”
Again please site the source that says that the LTTE fired from the camps…
Having SLMM or ICRC personnel amongst the Tigers and civilians WON’T stop the shelling (I myself have watched MSF medics being shelled while they worked on LTTE casualties in the ’90s). The Tigers will be shelled, if they choose to hide behind civilians, sadly they’ll be shelled too.
You realize you’ve just admitted to violations of the Geneva Convention which states that injured combatant becomes a non-combantant and has a right to medical care… can you say War Crimes Tribunal for Davey…
“OH, so you DO admit that the GOSL doesn’t allow SLMM in…?â€
No, I don’t. I was talking about the ICRC, UNHCR, etc.
As far as I know, the SLMM hasn’t been prevented from visiting Vaharai.
this shows how bad a liar you are…
From the horses mouth…:
SLMM statement (http://www.slmm.lk/press_releases/SLMM%20STATEMENT%20VAKARAI%20121206.pdf)
The SLMM has not been able to monitor the situation as well as it would have
wanted as monitors have been continuously refused access by the SLA into the
areas of concern. The SLA has cited security reasons for this. SLMM has on
countless occasions tried to patrol into Vakarai and most recently in the Kallar
area for inspections. Restriction of SLMM access by GOSL forces to areas where
violations may have taken place is in itself a violation of the CFA and more
importantly prevents the SLMM from working according to its mandate given to
them by the Parties.
This goes back to the argument about the “number” of CFA violations vs. the “qualitative” analysis of said violations. In my opinion the prevention/restriction of SLMM monitors access is a more serious violation that the “raising of a flag” in GOSL controlled areas…
this should have had quotes around it:
SLMM statement (http://www.slmm.lk/press_releases/SLMM%20STATEMENT%20VAKARAI%20121206.pdf)
”
The SLMM has not been able to monitor the situation as well as it would have
wanted as monitors have been continuously refused access by the SLA into the
areas of concern. The SLA has cited security reasons for this. SLMM has on
countless occasions tried to patrol into Vakarai and most recently in the Kallar
area for inspections. Restriction of SLMM access by GOSL forces to areas where
violations may have taken place is in itself a violation of the CFA and more
importantly prevents the SLMM from working according to its mandate given to
them by the Parties.”
“You still refuse to cite your references… please do so if you want to support your argument… otherwise you’re just talking out yer ass…”
Well, since you’ve already accepted that the LTTE refused to guarantee the SLMM’s safety (and in fact you attempted to justified it above), I thought we were in agreement thaat it happened. But since you ask, “H. whereas the European Union has formally listed the LTTE as a terrorist organisation, which has prompted the LTTE to declare that it refuses to guarantee the safety of EU troops and to demand their departure by 1 September 2006; whereas this has prompted the further escalation of hostilities” (http://www.europarl.europa.eu/omk/sipade3?OBJID=126504&L=DE&NAV=X&LSTDOC=N). Nothing about Army shelling being the reason.
I can find links that’ll back up the rest of what I’m saying, if you care to see ‘em.
“did the GOSL target the SLMM monitors so they wouldn’t open the sluice gate or examine poonery???”
Again, you’re making an assumption that isn’t based on evidence but conjecture. Do you seriously think military ops will cease because the SLMM moves into an area? They’re observers, not peace keepser. And the LTTE’s attempt to hide behind the SLMM personnel isn’t working, and the GoSL has obviously made it clear that they won’t fall for such an attempt.
“You realize you’ve just admitted to violations of the Geneva Convention which states that injured combatant becomes a non-combantant and has a right to medical care… can you say War Crimes Tribunal for Davey…”
Ha ha, you mean this isn’t a lilly-white war being fought by chivalrous gentlemen???? NOW you tell me. What about the hundreds of surrendered police personnel executed by the Tigers in June ’90, or the Several hundred sailors captured by the LTTE at Pooneryn that were executed? Would you like links to those events too? ;) Thanks for the chuckle, made my day.
“This goes back to the argument about the “number†of CFA violations vs. the “qualitative†analysis of said violations. In my opinion the prevention/restriction of SLMM monitors access is a more serious violation that the “raising of a flag†in GOSL controlled areas…”
Hmm, check this out — “of the 556 LTTE violations, the most common were ’313 cases of child recruitment, 89 cases of abduction, and 41 cases of harrassment’”. FLAG RAISING, did you say??? Ha ha.
Again, you’re making an assumption that isn’t based on evidence but conjecture. Do you seriously think military ops will cease because the SLMM moves into an area? They’re observers, not peace keepser. And the LTTE’s attempt to hide behind the SLMM personnel isn’t working, and the GoSL has obviously made it clear that they won’t fall for such an attempt.
The GOSL was informed that the SLMM would be there at that specific time and they shelled them… in fact in poonyre they could SEE them and shelled them…
i’m surprised that your response didn’t address the majority of the post… no comebacks???
did you want to withdraw this statement and accept you are wrong in this statement?
As far as I know, the SLMM hasn’t been prevented from visiting Vaharai.
you make these statements that to alot of the unintiated seem like Facts or “givens” but when someone comes back at you with the facts you switch to something else or pick on some insignificant other line of argument…
I can find links that’ll back up the rest of what I’m saying, if you care to see ‘em.
YES, please…
ESPECIALLY on the alleged firing by the LTTE from the IDP camps which you have spewed out all over the place without providing ONE scrap of evidence from an INDEPENDANT CREDIBLE source – i.e. not the GOSL, local reporters or local organizations…
why the silence davey…?
Well, the silence is because I don’t spend my weeekend in front of my pc. Also, since you are unwilling to accept SL newspaper reports, it’s harder to give you links. Takes a bit of searching.
“The GOSL was informed that the SLMM would be there at that specific time and they shelled them…”
I believe I’ve answered this question. That an operation is unlikely to be stopped just because the SLMM moves in. For example, the Army probably is unwilling to cease operations in Vakarai right now, and if the SLMM was let in, people (like you) would then accuse the GoSL of deliberately shelling the SLMM. It doesn’t matter if specific times are given.
“i’m surprised that your response didn’t address the majority of the post… no comebacks??? you make these statements that to alot of the unintiated seem like Facts or “givens†but when someone comes back at you with the facts you switch to something else or pick on some insignificant other line of argument…”
Ditto. You demanded a link to the LTTE threat on the SLMM and I provided you one. Instead of responding to it or withdrawing your false claim, you demand more links. This discussion began on aa totally different topic, and each time you argued yourself into a corner, you came back with a different pseudonym and a different horse to flog. What’s up with that? If you could debate without profanity and insults, Indi wouldn’t be blocking you (as you allege).
Perhaps you could go back and provide the links to your prespostrous claims first.
Also, since you are unwilling to accept SL newspaper reports, it’s harder to give you links. Takes a bit of searching.”
Do you really think that it would be hard to find if a legitmate source had verified these claims…? No, a simple google would have sufficed…
We all know the local media is not worth the paper it’s printed on…
“Ditto. You demanded a link to the LTTE threat on the SLMM and I provided you one. Instead of responding to it or withdrawing your false claim, you demand more links. This discussion began on aa totally different topic, and each time you argued yourself into a corner,”
There was no “threat” the LTTE just a statement of fact that the LTTE could not gaureente security… this in my opinion is due to the fact that the LTTE has no control over when and where the GOSL shells…
“That an operation is unlikely to be stopped just because the SLMM moves in. “
Excuse me, what operation was underway in poonery?
The GOSL had ASKED the SLMM and LTTE to inspect and explore the possibility of opening up the route to jaffna… and then shelled them… what’s up wit dat?
“Perhaps you could go back and provide the links to your prespostrous claims first.”
perhaps you can cite some of these and i will give them to you…
“If you could debate without profanity and insults, Indi wouldn’t be blocking you (as you allege).”
actully it is your insults that spurred mine… if you refrain i will
I have not used profanity once in my replies. Can you say the same? Or point out profanities I’ve used?
I am not going to repeat all my questions to you again because you chose to ignore them. They are in the blog, if you choose to answer, you may. If not, we’ll take it that you have no source.
you have name called david…
“No wonder you buggers are looking like idiots worldwide.”
“What kind of idiot are you?”
and a variety other places… if you can’t take it do give it out…
“I am not going to repeat all my questions to you again because you chose to ignore them. They are in the blog, if you choose to answer, you may. If not, we’ll take it that you have no source.”
What’re you afraid of…?
List ‘em and i’ll shoot ‘em down…
if not shut your trap…
you got nothing and you know it…
if the spam blocker is blocking the post… then just post one link…
can’t figure that out…?
Er… guess profanity and obscenity is the reason you are being listed aas a troll. Not name calling. As for you being an idiotic bugger, I guess the truth does set you free.
Here are some of the claims that you haaven’t substantiated. There are many more, but I don’t have the time to go back through the last week to make up for your laziness. Please provide links to substantiate these. Not arguments, justifications, apologies, counter-demands,etc, and not links to Tiger propoganda. Credible sources with corroborating evidence, to use your preferred term. Go for it:
1 I agree with Murali. Why can’t people accept that the Tamils overwhelmingly support the LTTE?
2 once a just peace is achieved the LTTE will submitt to the will of the voters and the system of govt will not be the same as it currently is… [a link to an item showing an example of such a plan will do]
3 by the way, i can’t tell you how many of the “tamil†elite in this town deep down secretly cheer the LTTE on…
4 The donors DO TRUST the LTTE – MUCH MORE THAN THE GOSL…
5 The govt has killed of many Tamil democratically elected leaders who the Tamils were fond off. e.g Kumar Ponnampalam, Joseph Pararajasingham, Chandra Nehru, Kousalyan, Vanniayasingam, Raviraj,
6 the LTTE’s are minor… carrying arms, recruiting “children†(and releasing a large number of them when they find that they are underage – check with UNICEF), raising the Tamil Eelam flag etc… [links have already been provided to the qualitative nature of LTTE CFA violations that contradict above]
7 the GoSL does have an UNSTATED INTERNAL POLICY of supporting a paramilitary
8 the GoSL does have an UNSTATED INTERNAL POLICY of using food as a weapon of war in violation of international humanitarian law
9 the GoSL does have an UNSTATED INTERNAL POLICY of rape
10 the SLMM in general puts most of the blame for the current situation on the GoSL
11 the LTTE have already encourage muslims to come back to Jaffna and the NE as a whole…
12 the 600,000 in jaffna are human shields for the GoSL forces…
I could go on, but it’s pointless. You’ll just change your pseudonym and claim that we’re blocking you out cos your Tamil, then come back with a different name and rant.
well, david… despite your claims to my multiplicity of identities… i did not make all of those statments…
i did some and will attempt (later due to work load now) to provide the supporting documentation…
and by the way… what happened to your imaginary post with the links that will set you free…?
can you post just one…?
the truth shall set you free and you will pay for every life you’ve taken… karma’s a bitch…
“what happened to your imaginary post with the links that will set you free…?”
If you can get your finger out of your backside you might notice that there’s a wheel-like thing on your mouse (no, the one on your desk); use said finger to scroll up and you’ll find the links posted. What’s up with you, thambi, you enjoy maaking a fool of yourself?
“well, david… despite your claims to my multiplicity of identities… i did not make all of those statments…”
Oh dear. Forced to say “wasn’t me” now that you can’t find any evidence? Tsk, tsk. As I said, once you’ve argued YOURSELF into a corner, you change your name. Arguing with you types is so easy. Guess arguing and fighting don’t seem to be things you guys do too well these days. Pretty revealing.
“the truth shall set you free and you will pay for every life you’ve taken… karma’s a bitch…”
What are you going to do, send me a suicide mouse? I’ll just go slash my wrists while I’m waiting.
Oh dear. Forced to say “wasn’t me†now that you can’t find any evidence? Tsk, tsk. As I said, once you’ve argued YOURSELF into a corner, you change your name. Arguing with you types is so easy. Guess arguing and fighting don’t seem to be things you guys do too well these days. Pretty revealing.”
sorry, davey… i’m not unemployed like you… sorry i have to work… and i DID NOT make all of those statements… but if you want, when i have the time i will nail ya on each one…
i’ve never argued my self into a corner… not sure what you’re talking about there… but ignorance is bliss and you seem like a happy camper…
Haha, OK, look forward to hearing from you when you’re done making the tea and sweeping the office. Now you’ll remember NOT to sweep yourself into those corners too, yeah?
Haha, OK, look forward to the that nailing (don’t hit your thumb now) once you’re done maaking tea and sweeping the office. Oh and waatch out for those corners — so easy to sweep yourself in;)
“There was no “threat†the LTTE just a statement of fact that the LTTE could not gaureente security…”
Sorry, people to fill this up by having to repeat myself, but since awomanaman/haha/nut/idiot/etc can’t focus on one subject at a time… As I said, it was an implied threat. How exactly does the LTTE suggest it caannot guarantee ONLY the EU citizens among the SLMM? If your silly excuse that it’s due to the Army threat, do Army shells somehow differentiate between EU and non-EU citizens? The point is, you asked for a link to substantiate the accusation of a threat by the LTTE and it was — the EU parliamentary notes. If you want to argue with the EU about it, go ahead. Good luck.
And I’ve just posted several links to answer your questions. I guess the spam filter won’t allow multiple links. Too bad. If Indi releases the post you’ll see it.
Can you guys get a room? I stopped following this thread a long time ago. You might want to continue the debate in private as it’s not really going anywhere.
True. Apologies. Just never can pull out in time.