tamils are not terrorists, tigers are.
only extremists (that includes sinhala chauvinists,ltte and its supporters here and in diaspora, and ltte appeasing peaceniks among others) deny that.

sinhalese are not chauvinists( always ready for an anti-tamils riot) either. same sort of ppl who make the above mistake make this one too.

question is would ppl who want real peace specifically denounce ltte and unite to defeat it (thorough war or through negotiations as the case may be). or would they let extremists whatever their shade set the agenda.

Hmmmmmmm. Sam might have a semblance of a point you know. Too few speak out against the LTTE.

I have always wanted peace in my country. Not all Sinhala people believe Tamil people are terrorists. So many Sinhala people have many Tamil friends. For instance me. My best friend is tamil and her family are one of the best families we have come to known.

Yet we as well have been betrayed by Tamil people that is those we thought who we could trust were involved with a bombing in a Central Bank in Colombo. I know this because they told us not to go there that day and we had no idea why.

Sinhala people don’t want all tamil people exterminated or killed because killing $3.6million people out of $20million is impossible and cruel and I’d rather not live in a country that are so cruel at all.

Yes the tamil people are suffering but so are innocent Sinhala. At the end we all make the country as Sri Lankans. But in order to create a United Sri Lanka we must trust each other. Trust is what is missing in the nation. Trust between a Sinhala Buddist and a Tamil Hindu.

We have been fighting for so many years I hope people can realise that it is possible to end this. From the past I know that Sinhala people are not the only ones that were discriminating. That is before the war started we too have been told not to sing our Sinhala national anthem and to sing a Tamil one. (those were the days when there was no war)!.

Giving up a whole part of our country is not an option. Because if you haven’t realised there are $20 million people in this country. A whole $3.6million people can’t take over the whole North region of our country. Because then where will the others live? The other $16.4 million? I don’t ever want to feel that my own country where I have come from has given me restrictions. Because then it is not my country. I as a Sinhala want to travel peacefully in my country and not feel like I am invading any “non-sinhala” part of our country.

In order to gain peace we must earn trust from the Tamil people because they have hurt many people in our country and we too have hurt many of them in responce.

Yet one thing is for certain we must never fight because of different religions,languages and culture. We only fight because we cannot live in peace with each other because the most important factor in any relationship is missing. That is Trust.

I absolutly agree with Sam I think he couldn’t have said it better. LTTE are the terrorists not the tamil people. When the day that comes when all Tamils go against LTTE then peace will happen in Sri Lanka. Then there will be a United Sri Lanka. I just hope all those good hearted tamil people find the courage in themselves to get themselves out of this but I know it would be very hard for them.

Hi,

“Of course all Tamils aren’t terrorists”.. but MANY.. that’s the sad truth.
A Terrorist does not mean only the people actively involved in terrorism. Providing help, not disclosing possible known plots to kill civilians, providing transport, providing funds, issuing statements in support of terrorists are all part of Terrorism.
For example, a person knowingly rent a house to a LTTE linked person or contribute to an LTTE affiliated NGO is a terrorist. It does not matter whether that person actively participated in Central bank bombing or not. But if the person knew that it’s going to happen or controbuted funds to LTTE, then that person is part of it. Why I took the central bank bomb as an example is that for some reason, on that day, most of the tamil employees were on sick leave. May be it was a coincidence.

When I asked in your blog yesterday, unfortunately no one managed to list down 10 living tamil leaders in south with us who oppose LTTE openly.
Instead, most of them showed the lack of facts by typing the 4 letter word to cover themselves in a shameful manner.

I already listed the incident that took place in our parliament yesterday.

(No 4 letter words please. I do not care.. so don’t expect me to ‘byte the dog back’.. )

Let me start..

TNA is not LTTE.
LTTE is ALL TAMIL
TNA is ALL TAMIL
LTTE is a terrorist group
TNA support LTTE

Any tamil person is free to support TNA

Now can you say TNA is not terrorists? If TNA is part of a terrorist group, then what about the TNA members?

——————————————————

TRO is not LTTE.
TRO is a registered NGO
LTTE is ALL TAMIL
TRO is ALL TAMIL
LTTE is a terrorist group
TRO fund LTTE
Any tamil person can fund TRO.

Now can you say TRO is not terrorists? If TRO is part of a terrorist network then what about the people who sent funds to them?

I will try my best to answer all logical constructive comments.

Janapathi
The extremist :)

I’m sick of this sentimental ‘my best friend is a Tamil’ half arsed crap. Your best friend is your ‘best friend’ doesn’t matter if he’s a filthy nigger (says Sophist the racially tolerant). This problem is bigger than you and your best friend. Forgive my annoyance Sri Lankan Girl but Janapathi has once again pissed me off.

Janapathi – why aren’t you going and fucking yourself. A gentle reminder with Jehan Mubarak’s largely unused bat perhaps?

All Tamils are clearly not Terrorists. But all Terrorists (I’m not grouping Sinhala Chauvinist pigs here for the sake of the argument) are Tamil. And like Sam pointed out yesterday, when you’re the brown guy that gets his orifices searched at JFK, sometimes you have to grin and bear it, and wonder to yourself how much of ignominy can you take because of the brothers that claim to represent you.

Aadhavan on Ravana’s blog made some very pertinent points as to why there is no alternate ‘moderate’ Tamil voice. I’m at work so I can’t be arsed reiterating them.

But the fact remains that while Janapathi’s kindergarten (for special children) logic unfolds nothing, the fact remains that their is mistrust on BOTH sides. Wake up and scratch your arses. Your shit stinks to you Sinhala motherfuckers. The Tamils think that we will fuck them as soon as the LTTE lays down their arms. The LTTE is the Mafia that makes it difficult for anyone to mess with the Italians wherever they maybe.

So don’t expect them to give up their only bargaining chip.

Indi has made some very valid points in his post – one of his better ones in these last few weeks of debauchary and misty eyes. If you want a United SL, learn to live with the Tamils. Otherwise shut the fuck up on this Unitary bullshit. How many people want to go to Amparai anyway – even if they could.

Don’t forget that the war is a wonderful cover up for the fact that petrol is nearly a hundred bucks a litre, we can’t watch tv after 10 and my girlfriend can’t buy booze. Wake up and smell the Chinthanaya you daft Sinhala fucks…we voted for him no?

Indi, I like this. I hope you get to write about something else in your lifetime too. I don’t want a national display of piety or violence to define my generation. I too just want to get on with it, and I want to hear to cacophony of cultures too.

Thank you Janapathi. I see you have been doing your research on premature ejaculation. Another problem that plagues the Sinhala Buddhists.

Now that you’ve done your research as to how to stop coming on your own arse….go fuck yourself.

indi, this is a truly great post.

how true : we are left with just two options. this can be the true test of who we really are, and what we really want. there are no in-betweens this time, just this or that. if we are racist, extremist motherfuckers that don’t believe that tamils belong on this island just as much as the sinhalese do, its time to admit it and do whatever it takes to keep sri lanka from being contaminated by the ‘others’. if, however, we speak of unity and peace and wanting an end to the war, we have to realize that it’s time, like indi says, that we all grew up and dealt with it. if you can’t celebrate diversity, live with it. if you can’t rejoice in multicultural and multi ethnic harmony, just fucking tolerate it. a little patience will take you a long, long way.

it’s not ‘their’ war. it’s not just the GoSL or the LTTE. its us. its people like janapathi, people like the monks in the JHU. its people who are rabid and intolerent and blood-thirsty and extremist. its our mess, and we can no longer pretend its not.

there can be no ‘united sri lanka’ without the people wanting it. we need to want it too.

Indi:
Can’t you ban this Janapathi fucker? Don’t you see that he is rude, irritative and utter filthy? I understand we need to respect other’s opinion and there should be freedom of expression. But I do not approve of a guy fucking in the middle of the road.

Please Indi, the one thing I would request for a change in your blog is to ban this guy. guy or girl? or in-between? I am sorry, I really don’t know.

Please Indi. Don’t force me to launch a signature campaign for this humble request.
Thanks,
Senapathy

Senapathy machan…if Indi were to ban people for being rude, irritative and plain filthy, that would mean I would be banned too. And it would break my heart to be classed alongside Janapathi.

Did you go fuck yourself Janapathi?

To Sophist, Ravana, Electra and Indi

Give up trying to explain things to Janapathi.. he’s an idiot who just can’t see beyond is his own damn prejudice.

How on earth someone can spew such racist bile in this day an age is beyond me, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – people like him are a curse on this country. I cannot for the life of me understand someone who would so openly display his ignorance and then have the gall to defend it. BTW Sophist it’s difficult to tell someone to go fuck themselves when they already have their head up their own arses (it’s to do with the hole being blocked and the little penis not getting in the way you see)

Ravana I sympathise with your own effort to educate Janapathi… see I told you it’s like repeatedly bashing your head against a wall. I loved the fact though that he added the caveat that he meant Tamil leaders in the South when you presented him with the evidence… you got to love his special brand of idiocy

Like Indi said we all have to see past ethinicity and just see nationality… Ideally we should all call ourselves Sri Lankan and that’s it… not Tamil or Sinhala Buddhist or muslim or christian… just Sri Lankan… we are an ethinically diverse country and have always been. Alas, this is probably not going to happen because the people like Janapathi won’t allow Tamils to say that freely, to him they are to be mistrusted and reviled. To him a Tamil is not really a Sri Lankan or rather not a ‘real’ Sri Lankan anyway.

Janapathi I am going to say this as simply as possible:

Yes we all know there are Sri Lankans who support (Financially, politically and ideologically) the LTTE voluntarily and there are those who do so under duress, as there are muslims who do the same with Al Qaeda but to suspect every single one of them is just plain stupid… Why can’t you see that?

The sad thing is that it’s probably too late to help Janapathi (I hope I’m wrong)… he’s too far up his own racist ass to figure things out for himself and way too stupid to understand even when it’s explained to him.. slowly… with pictures.

Oh and since you like equations so much here’s one just for you:

Janapathi = idiot

There you go nice and simple….

Sophist..
Now what do you think where this is turning in to?

I do not think this guy who troll here understand what he is doing. Also he must have thought that Janapathi wasted his time here without a purpose.. Is Japanathi fucked up here? Who is in fact fucked up? I wonder..

Finally Janapathi! Your 15 mts. of fame you have been begging for all this time, is here! Now you can fuck yourself peacefully can’t you?

Hi Niroshan
Welcome back man..
I think Janapathi won’t be trolling here anymore..
So you got the point right..
this world is so small and somtimes can not understand what the heck is going on..

Indika

Sophist,

Yes, you are correct.. This is a strange world.
Isn’t it? Even we do not know who the real buggers in our parliment are. I hope Janapathi is not in our Parliment. Let’s say. we hope. People aren’t what they look, sounds like. What do you think?

Janapathi is crazy right. You fucked him up. Great man. Enjoy this moment of time.

Indika

[...] indi has a great post on this very same question : albeit slightly angrier and heartfelt. the situation has really boiled down to the point where the sri lankan people are left with two options : either you ‘burn your churches, temples, newspapers and schools to a pure ash or grow up and fucking deal.’ [...]

Strongly believe that Janapathi should not be banned. His point of view is valuable, because it is different from the rest. If he goes, the segment of the population that think like him will not be represented on this blog.

He adds some value. For instance, I didn’t know about the incidents in parliament yesterday until he brought it up.

More importantly, he is a living example of why it is important for ordinary Tamils to differentiate themselves from the LTTE’s cause and method. More ordinary Tamils MUST condemn them. They must differentiate themselves. If they do not do this, they really are asking for more people like him. Sorry, but it’s true.

I do not think Janapathi gives a shit about getting banned here. But I wonder, why the troller here crossed the line by personally challenging him with words that Janapathi never used against anyone. It was a foolish idea to use such words to a person without knowing who that person is. Remember, you do not know him does not mean that he is the same.

For me, if someone said go and fuck yourself.. sooner or later I will fuck him out..

This war is not what it looks like. You get good NGO’s like Mr. AT Ariyarathne’s Sarvodhaya movement as well as on the other hand NGO’s like TRO.. If people can not identify who they are and stay away from them, they will have to eat that shit.. For example, I have joined the ‘Pada Yathra’ during 1980′s where we walked from colombo to thissamaharamaya for Peace in Sri Lanka. Now who are these people talking bullshit here like they do not know who TRO is and who the hell TNA are, how LTTE get funds.. bullshit.. We have to make our idiots know what is real and what is not real.
Then the tamils living around us will start talking, if they wants to.

Again, just passing through (but I think I’m gona keep passing through from now on!), I don’t think Janapathi should be banned. Even if his views are those of an extreme, narrow minded bigot, his comments are highly entertaining. The way that you guys retort as well is just as much entertaining. Come on, if he was to go, who would you tell to go “F**K themselves”?!

In response to the original blog, I totally agree.

this is typical of sl blogosphere. everyone denouncing an extremist and/or calling him to shut up (btw i agree janapathi should be denounced bc he says tamils are terrorists. though i wont agree to shut him up or ban him). one would think he created the sl conflict.

it is easy to denounce what others denounce but otherwise everyone is so vague.

does everyone here openly and specifically denounce ltte ? do we accept that to have real peace we need to defeat ltte? do we accept that to ‘free’ tamils from fear that prevents them from opposing ltte we need to defeat ltte? do we denounce those who appease ltte, by accepting ltte’s sole representative status ? do we denounce those who advocate surrender of large part of tamil population to ltte government of some kind in order to have ‘peace’?

do we realize that to defeat ltte may mean more violence? including so called ‘collateral damage’ and occasional soldier going berserk (who should be punished according to law)? is that acceptable?

i am yet to see any answers to those questions in blogosphere.

Janapathy as much as I disagree with your view and mentality I would not support a ban… you have the right to be a prejudiced, ignorant, vile jackass who consumes 2 tablespoons of coconut oil for breakfast, lunch and dinner (yes I visited your blog).

I for one hope that you change your mindset… you seem like someone who’s not afraid to express their opinion no matter how extreme or controversial.. for that (and without a hint of sarcasm) I give you credit. You obviously are frustrated that Sri Lankan Tamils do not voice their opposition to the LTTE more often… but it is ignorant to conclude that therefore all Tamils are LTTE’ers or that all Tamils should be treated with caution and suspicion. There are many reasons why which Ravana and a few others have tried to point out, but you just don’t seem to listen.

They are scared – most public figures who have voiced their opposition to the LTTE have been brutally murdered but you seem to think that these voices were not important given your casual dismissal of their words. Would you put your life or those that you love on the line to speak out against a terrorist organisation like the LTTE? – think a little without assuming that the silence is evidence of collusion.

They are dismissed as having an agenda – I’m not saying that you have ever stated this – but there is an opinion that those who speak out have an ulterior motive and should not be trusted. To put everything on the line to speak out for what’s right and then have the audience call you a liar or worse ignore you is enough to test the bravest of souls.

A fear that the majority will never accept you as an equal – I’ll ask you this question and think long and hard before you answer – If there was no war Janapathy, no LTTE, no suicide bombers, none of the crap we have had to deal with for so long – If a Tamil wanted to run for the post of president of SL and he/she was truly the best candidate would you vote for them? Think about this really, really hard before you answer – you’ve been honest so far – I think you’ll find that the answer is the key to your prejudice… you just can’t bring yourself to see the minorities for what they are, as true Sri Lankans.

Try putting yourself in the mindset of a minority – try living abroad it really helps – then you’ll begin to understand why things are the way they are… defeating the LTTE will not automatically make things better for Tamils in Sri Lanka, the racist in you still won’t consider them Sri Lankan…. the moment you realise that you’ll see why such a gulf exists (sorry to keep harping on this Janapathy but I truly feel that you haven’t understood things)

As for the TNA MP’s… it was a disgrace and the reaction was even worse… however (ahhh there’s always a however isn’t there)… what disgusts me more is that the JVP exploited the murder (and it was nothing short of murder) of those innocent people for their own cheap political gain.. to think that they felt genuine sorrow is naive… all politicians do this not just the JVP..

I wouldn’t speak on behalf of sittingnut, but the way I understood his post, those questions seemed rhetorical questions to illustrate the fact that many people who post here don’t take a firm stand against tiger terrorists.
The answers to his questions are implied in the questions themselves, so how can you say he doesn’t give answers ?
(For example, when he says “Do we accept that to have real peace, we need to defeat the LTTE ?”, it is clear that he is simultanously assering the fact that the only way to achieve peace is to defeat the LTTE. Then he goes on to assert the fact that such a defeat will have it’s costs through rhetorical questions.)

At this point of time there is no alternative to fighting the tigers. The peace process is at a dead end because it’s impossible to clap with one hand.
From what I’ve understood of sittingnut’s post, he seems to be saying that we should accept the fact that we’ll have to deal with a full fledged war because the tigers are determined to wage one. That being the case. the only way forward would be to militarilly fight the LTTE so that the terrorists are weakened to the point of being forced to come back to the negotiating table.
According to my understanding, that’s his solution. So how can you say he doesn’t give any answers himself ?
(Correct me if I misinterpreted your position sittingnut.)

sittingnut,
let’s try and dissect your assumptions and your course of action.

You agree the gov, does not represent the Tamils and that there is no motivation from the majority that would permit them or want them to do so. You also claim that the LTTE does not represent the Tamils. That’s all right. But you’re solution is woefully out of line with your assumptions. If you agree that the government does not really want to represent the Tamils, what good will it do that the LTTE is destroyed. Will the government then suddenly want to represent the Tamils, or will there be a perception that we have ultimately ridden ourselves of this menace of having been forced to amke concessions to the Tamils. Of course you anticipate this, and your answer is for Tamils to go back to political negotiations like the CWC. More than 70,000 dead and we have to go back to square one. Tamils want politcal rights. Democratic struggle. The youth get disgruntled, start fighting again. Same scenario a hundred years on. Not pretty. Of course the alternative is for the Tamil politicians to splinter up, get greedy and basically run after ministerial posts just like CWC, while the community gets fucked. Do you know how badly off those guys are? Hell, the Jaffna Tamil political parties had to lobby for years just for the sake of getting citizenship for the Indian Tamils! What have they achieved politically? The CWC are a glorified trade union and if that’s the fate of a political struggle, then I don’t want it. Don’t forget, Tamil political parties fought for 30 years in a ‘democratic’ way and what did they get? Got beaten by thugs at a protests, got more than a few riots in the 50′s and the 70′s and finally 83, military occupation, Sinhala only, unitary state, standardization…so I really doubt that your srtategy is one that appeals to Tamils.

Like I said earlier the LTTE are a symptom of a larger problem. The benefit of a symptom is that it draws attention to the larger problem, and this blog stands as evidence to that simple truth. Sittingnut, your solution does not solve the problem, it at best postpones it and possibly compounds it. The LTTE may not be the ideal political voice of all Tamils, but they are the only voice to Tamil grievances that is capable of negotiating a settlement with the Government. After they do that, the pressure will be great on the LTTE to change. The SL government was capable of putting a stop to anti Tamil riots in Colombo for the sake of dollars, the same kind of motivation will force the LTTE to change if they are given the task of running some sort of autonomous unit.

It all sounds nice Indi, we’re all waiting for the day when there is peace on earth. Don’t know if we’ll ever see the day, but the only thing anybody can do is continue to be a good person in the face of whatever comes their way. If everybody could just get along despite differences, the world would be a great place.

which other minorities have discovered the virtue of a political struggle sn. The Muslims, the up country Tamils or the Burghers?
My undelying assumption is that the state does not adequately represent the Tamils and Tamil legislators can stand on their heads for 30 years, but without a genuine willingness to change, it’s very unlikely the government will change. The weakening of the LTTE or containment of it is likely to have the opposite effect. Besides, a weakening of the LTTE means that the international community’s attention to the conflict diminishes, and that’s problematic. You have to be sure that the government will be willing to make the same concessions to the Tamils they would make in the recent future, in the absence of the LTTE. Asking the Tamils to follow the political path of the up country Tamils, while it may seem to you to be the romance of democracy, is tantamount to saying, “All right chaps, forget about your political rights now. We’ll give you a 15 rupee pay rise when we feel like it and when we have to ask India for a a favour”

There is huge distiction betweena functioning representative majority where political rights can be fought for, and a majoritarian quasi democracy where it’s not possible. Sri Lanka is an example of the latter. The numbers in parliament don’t add up. Happily, the distinction is based on the mindset of people and that’s something that can change.

The LTTE could have changed during cfa, but they were excluded from the Donor Conference weren’t they. Sirhn was scuttled. Chandrika didn’t allow a discussion of the ISGA. P-TOMs was scuttled. There was nothing in it for them, and consequently no pressure to change.

sn,
I don’t need janapathi or anyone to tell me the factual situation that the LTTE are the only viable political voice of the Tamils. The government tells me this every day when they talk about how a permanent solution has to be thrashed out with the LTTE. The Chinthanaya says it and thus implicitly the JHU also tells me this. So soes the UNP. What is the political party that denies it? We’ve got past the point of questioning the LTTE’s legitimacy to represent the political interest of Tamils. It is a fact and accept it we must.

Ok.. this is from today’s BBC news..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5102456.stm

‘Ready for war’

The truce has been described by Tamil Tiger political leader SP Thamilselvan as “just a piece of paper that has no meaning at all”.

In an interview with the Associated Press, Mr Thamilselvan also said they would use all means necessary in the event of all-out war.

“We definitely will make use of all the weapons in our arsenal – not only weapons but manpower,” he said.

Asked if this meant suicide bombings, he said: “In facing war… of course we will use all our resources.”

———————————-

“Trust them or not”

Anyway, just keep looking around you and stay away from any suspected thing around you.. No need to elaborate more..

I am intruiged by aadhavan’s comments about political rights for Tamils. Are these special political rights that are over and above the rights that citizens in Sri Lanka are entitled to and for which the LTTE are engaging in terrorism?

As for numbers in parliament there are 22 TNA MP’s out of a legislature with 225 seats. That is roughly about 10% of the seats and is approximately proportionate to the Sri lankan Tamil population in Sri Lanka. Hence I am not sure what numbers don’t add up.

It is not the numbers that are the problem. It is the implementation of democracy thathas failed.

As I said before the problem is that the governments of Sri Lanka todate have not truly represented and served the majority of people. Hence it is not only Tamil people but people from all ethnicities and religions have been affected by their bad governance.

I agree that democracy has not been properly established in Sri Lanka. It is not only the Tanils but people of all ethnicities and religiosn are adversely affected by it.

Special rights for one group over the other is not going to unite the people nor is it going to resolve the underlying problem.

A sincere and honest political leadership who think of the long term interests of the whole country and who are determined to establish genuine democracyand true equality and to address the genuine grievances of all of Sri lanka’s citizens can turn this problem around.

SIRHN was scuttled by the LTTE.

The ISGA and the PTOMS were blue prints or stepping stones to separation, which no country that wishes to maintain it’s sovereignty and territorial integrity.

The LTTE have never come up with a proposal that doesn’t aim to dilute the sovreignty and territorial integrity of Sri Lanka and which doesn’t serve as a platform for future separation.

They have violently opposed the provincial councils as they safeguard the and territorial integrity of Sri Lanka while devolving a substantial amount of power to the councils.

It is the LTTE and their intrasigience that is responsible for the breakdown of talks and no one else. This has been the case for the last 30 years ever since the first act of terrorism was committed by them with the assasination of the democratically elected mayor of Jaffna, Mr. Alfred Duraippah in 1976. BTW Anton balasingham admitted that the LTTE killed Mr. Duraippah.

One statement should read as “The ISGA and the PTOMS were blue prints or stepping stones to separation, which no country that wishes to maintain it’s sovereignty and territorial integrity would agree to”.

the rights I’m talking about are in the form of 1. institutional assurances that the Tamils will never be subject to the same discrimination they were subjected to during the period between independence and the emergence of the LTTE and 2.the provision of mechanisms to adequately deal with such an eventuality if and when it does arise. Autonomy and self governance seems a pretty good idea in that respect. There were a lot of Tamil legislators during Sinhala only and state sponsored colonisation and standardization, it didn’t help.]

Your assessment of what dilutes sovereignty, territorial integrity etc are largely arbitrary. If the unitary state( the vesting of all residual power in the centre and the non sharing of legislative authority) is your benchmark, then I don’t think there’s a solution that’s acceptable to you and to the Tamils at the same time. If national unity is your benchmark, then surely any provision for autonomy within a one state framework that also institutionalizes protection against separation is acceptable. If you’re not willing to concede this, I wonder who should be called intransigient.

“What do Tamils want?”

We need to figure this out before anything else. I think this question can only be answered by Tamils. Any assertions by non-Tamils are merely assumptions.

Aadhavan and Theena from opposing points of view – my congratulations to you for voicing out. It helps us understand that not all Tamils want the same thing, and not all Tamils accept the position of LTTE as representative, by default or otherise.

Aadhavan – are Tamils in the North and East better off today or than they would have been without the LTTE? It would appear to me that life under the LTTE = their children kidnapped and used as cannon fodder, their homes used as shields against the SL military, no freedom of speech, no political freedom, higher cost of living (due to extortionate taxes), no business opportunities, fear of death, malnutrition and other basic fringe benefits of living under a fascist regime.

I think the only reason you hang on to your position is pride. The LTTE are a curse on the Tamil people.

Are Tamils in NE better off?

I don’t know. It’s difficult to compare their quality of life at present with the quality of life if not for the LTTE. It’s difficult to envisage what would have happened to the Tamils in the NE if not for the LTTE. As it is, the quality of life is terrible. Because of the LTTE and because of the government. My uncle worked at Jaffna Hospital during government control of Jaffna and witnessed little kids dying of very treatable diaseases because the government simply was underfunding the Jaffna Hospital. The comparisons between what was going into other hospitals and what was going into hospitals in Jaffna were startling. Also on the government side, there is shelling and aerial bombing and extra judicial killings and rape etc. There are restrictions on fishing and land has been taken away by the army. This causes a lot of poverty and malnutrition etc because the people lose their livelihood. There is also the LTTE and the problems they cause to the people like you point out…taxes, recruitment etc.

WHAT I do know, is that the Tamils are so much closer to and so much stronger in their pursuit of achieving a lasting solution due to the LTTE. So the question is, “was it worth it?” I don’t know. I think that should be left to individuals to decide after the conflict comes to a close. My answer may not satisfy a person who has lost more than I have. The strange thing Ravana is that people who have lost the most are the ones most willing to say it was worth it… the fishermen, the farmers in the HSZ. The ones who have lost much less like myself (the only relative of mine killed by the conflict was a Minister in the SL Government) are tempted to say it was not worth it. I’m sorry this is a really broad generalization, but does contain more than an element of truth. Only time will tell and history will judge.

To all,

ok.. I lost. I am wrong. Not all Tamils are terrorists. Be happy.. finally Janapathi accepted it.

So whoever argued with me over “trust them or not” here..
Please take care of yourselves and your families. For the sake of Sri Lanka.. please Be Suspicious. Not about the college university buddies or SSC, H2O buddies.. but the guys like taxi fellows, lorry drivers etc.. any unusual activity around you, don’t think they are one of us.. coz they will blow your ass out to pieces. If you think I’m wrong again (because you always right), then ask from Selvam to warn before he blows someone out to pcs..

That’s all.. don’t post anything for me to reply coz I am off for a business trip..

Anyway, to make everyone feels comfortable.. I conclude quoting the latest..

———————————————————————–
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5102456.stm

‘Ready for war’

The truce has been described by Tamil Tiger political leader SP Thamilselvan as “just a piece of paper that has no meaning at all”.

In an interview with the Associated Press, Mr Thamilselvan also said they would use all means necessary in the event of all-out war.

“We definitely will make use of all the weapons in our arsenal – not only weapons but manpower,” he said.

Asked if this meant suicide bombings, he said: “In facing war… of course we will use all our resources.”

—————————————————-

“Trust them or not”
guys.. God Bless..

Cheers!
Janapathi

Hey Ravana,
How are you doing. I’m going to keep this as short a spossible.

The NE economy suffered massively after the exodus of the middle class Tamils and their migration overseas. They did not go because of the LTTE. I hate to talk about it again but they did not leave because of the LTTE. They left after some very unsavoury incidents.

You said
“One common way of objectively measuring how well off people are is to look at economic, social, and health indicators like life expectancy, infant mortality, GDP per capita, literacy rates, etc etc. All these are lower in the LTTE controlled areas than anywhere else in Sri Lanka.”

That’s probably true, you see there is a war going on as you are quick to point out in response to allegations of state terror. A lot of people in the Vanni were not very well of in the first place and a lot of people living there now are Internally displaced from other parts of the North East, because they consider it relatively safe. In January, when the soldiers were targetting families of LTTE cadres in Jaffna, a lot of them moved to Vanni. No jobs, no houses, no permanency, nothing. So yes, there are a whole load of social problems. Also there is a government imposed blockade on several items now, so the problems aren’t surprising. However, I do hear that there is an efficient police and judicial system. I don’t know how you can flourish economically without doing a job and without disaster aid reaching you when thousands of lives are lost. I hear that the much maligned TRO does a lot of good work in those areas. There’s no place in the country that’s gone through so much, so it’s a little difficult to put it all down to mismanagement.

However, the comparison between Tamils in the rest of the country and the Tamils in LTTE controlled territory is a false one. I’m not sure that the living standards of a lower class family in the Vanni are much worse than a lower class family in Jaffna or Trincomalee where the army controls territory. Where did you find this piece of info? However, you can’t compare Tamils in Colombo and Tamils in the Vanni because Colombo is the capital city and people are naturally more affluent… and becasuse there aren’t riots anymore!…because the whole world is watching…because the LTTE started fighting…
As for the comparison between the up country Tamils and the Tamils in the NE, the up country has never been hit by war, but crucially, the up country is as developed as it will possibly be. What I mean is that the lot of the estate Tamils is not going to increase substantially in the near future. As for the NE Tamils, there remains the strong possibility that some sort of solution will dramatically increase their standard of living. The war stops, people start working again, plus there’s a hell of a lot of money out there, foreign donors and diaspora money, that’s waiting to pour into the NE economy if there is a solution.But for now, according to you, the lot of the up country Tamils is the standard Tamils will have to settle for if the LTTE gives up arms…a very tempting proposition. Hmmm…Must consider it.

So in the final analysis, your comparisons demonstrate little other than that the war has taken it’s toll on the Tamils in the NorthEast. And I’m not denying that. I said it was upto the people to decide whether the sacrifices were worthwhile.

Your assumption is that the war has not brought any benefits to the Tamils and that is not an assumption a lot of Tamils share. The political freedom of the Tamil people maybe obsolete to you, but to a lot of Tamils they are worth fighting for. A hundred years on, if the Tamils are to enjoy the benefits of substantial autonomy, people will say that the sacrifices made were worthwhile.
Tamils are, I repeat, so much closer to and so much stronger in their pursuit of achieving a lasting solution due to the LTTE.

“lower than the national average”
Never disagreed with that, was just questioning whether the malnutrition was limited to LTTE controlled areas of the NE. It’s not, and I’ve seen evidence of that too. There are fishermen all over the NE who can’t fish and farmers who can’t work the land. It’s related to the policies of the government and the activities of the LTTE and the effect of the war in general.

At the end of the day you make a value judgement that the armed struggle will never be worth it. That’s a position that is a little difficult for me to accept.

Indi: GREAT post !!

Couple of things, Indi. Wanting a united SL doesn’t necessarily mean one has to have Tamil friends and eat Tamil food. That’s the whole point. You don’t have to live with them, just alongside them. You don’t even have to like them, just work with them. Take Singapore. United state, but with distinct ethnic groups that pretty much can’t stand each other, but who are willing to get along to realize their common goals.

And frankly, no one people, culture, or language (Tamil, Sinhalese, or whatever) is vital to this country, just rightful.

I know it’s nice and pc to believe that all the refugees just want their houses back, but not all of them want ‘five minutes alone in the shower’; some of them want five minutes alone with a few Sinhalese, an AK-47, and a couple of loaded mags. And rightfully so.

Yes, there are jackasses on one’s own side who claim to speak for all; and they do, if no one else speaks up. Aadhavan’s point that the LTTE is the voice of the Tamils is quite valid, just by default if nothing else. The reason Janapathi can’t be our voice is because we shout him down. Where are the counter voices in the huge Tamil diaspora living in Europe, Australia, and North America? Are they living under a Tiger death threat? Al Qaeda can’t make the ‘sole voice’ claim because we hear the counter voices of alternate Muslim leadership. The LTTE is quite legitimate in that claim. There is no other voice.

Aadhavan’s other point that whatever rights the GoSL has now restored to the Tamils have been won by the Tigers (and their former allies) is also accurate. Even the most anti-Tiger Tamils admit this. Decades of peaceful demands by Tamil political parties achieved nothing. The threat of violence brought the concessions. Aadhavan’s not being uninformed or proud, just realistic. Calling a spade a spade doesn’t make one a spade-loyalist.

Indi, if the majority of people wanted to just “make some more money, get married, buy a house and move on”, we wouldn’t be in the jam we are now. Maybe they do now that it’s all gone pear-shaped, but this wasn’t just created by politicians and governments, but by all the little men and women who voted for them. Who are still voting for them.

regardless of the peril of being subjected to a severe ad hominem verbal attack on the basis of my schooling and postal address that apparently undermine my credibility, may I suggest that “what is worth it” is a subjective decision to be made by individuals who are the ones making the sacrifices that are being spoken of. Freedom v Food may be a particular dilemma facing the NE Tamils now. No guessing what Ravana’s preferences are.

As was already stated, we can only judge whether it was worth it once it’s all over, and we might have to face the fact that we may not be the ones to answer. We might as well ask whether a united SL was/is worth all the young men we’ve sacrificed. Was a Jewish homeland worth the six million killied in the Holocaust? If Eelam eventually comes into being, was it worth the ’83 riots? Is it even a worthy question?

One more point. I often see conversations (the above one included) where whenever Tamils show any sort of agreement with or inclination towards (however small) a separate state, they are immediately asked if they would be willing to go and live in it. That is hardly the point. The real point is that the Tamils were asking for equal rights for many years and were ignored. A sparate state is a means to an end, and that end is equality. Even if the Tamils get their separate state, they will (and should) be free to live wherever they wish, regardless. Just like any other nationality on earth.

HP, I said it was pc to believe that all the refugees want is to move on. Some want revenge. That want is understandable.

The ‘voices’ you mention are not talking loudly enough to counter the LTTE (sadly). Having a voice means more than just talking, however, and to be truly heard they must have the ability to induce change. That has not happened so far. And as for Karuna & the TMVP, they have not articulated any sort of position vis a vis the Tamils. So they can’t really be considered a countervoice.

Believe me, large portions of the Tamil diaspora cannot be threatened by the LTTE. Large portions do not contribute Tiger taxes. They either have no close relatives in SL, or those relatives don’t live in the NE. It doesn’t take vast numbers to have a voice, just big mouths.

And when I talk about concessions, I’m not just talking about constitutional change alone. Yes, very little has even now been done, but whatever little is a result of the separatist terrorists and their allies (and yes, India once was an ally).

David – I totally agree that everybody should be free to choose where they live. The point of my question was to illustrate that things are worse for the Tamils under the LTTE than they are under the GoSL, which is why many Tamils will not choose to move to Eelam under the LTTE, even if it does come about.

You said: “Was a Jewish homeland worth the six million killed in the Holocaust?”

The Jews were not fighting the Nazis for a seperate state dude, and the way I heard it, they didn’t even use violence against the Nazis, in the first place. They were killed anyway, and they would have been even if they had used violence against the Nazis. Your analogy is flawed. Hence, it’s not “even a worthy question”.

You said: We might as well ask whether a united SL was/is worth all the young men we’ve sacrificed.

Exactly. We must ask the question, “Is it worth it – all the lives lost?” And the answer, for me, is a resounding “No.” Give the Tamils a federal solution, or give them Eelam if they want it that badly, and lets just get on with our lives.

Problem is, will the Tamils want to live under the fascist tyranny of the LTTE? DO they really want it that badly, or is it just pride? And I didn’t want Aadhavan to go and live there when I asked him that question – well, not until we’ve had that drink we’ve been planning to have after his exams anyway – I am just curious to know if he wants Eelam THAT badly, and whether he likes the LTTE THAT much and dislikes the GoSL THAT much that he would prefer to live under the LTTE in Eelam, than his lead his present life, allegedly discriminated against by the government and the people of the South.

You said: we can only judge whether it was worth it once it’s all over, and we might have to face the fact that we may not be the ones to answer.

I completely disagree. We can’t judge it, cos we might be dead. So, what does it matter? In the long run we are all dead. Principles mean nothing. You can’t give birth to a principle. You can’t see it off to school. You can’t watch it grow. It can’t go to university. It can’t start a business, or write a book, or invent something new. It can’t make you laugh or cook you a nice meal. It can’t comfort you or take care of you in your old age.

Focus on the happiness now, machang, not some vague idea of it in the future for people you haven’t even met yet. Who knows what might happen next year? An asteroid could hit earth and then where would we be? If you focus on being happy now, then chances are our children will inherit happiness. Focus on war now, and chances are our children will inherit the war.

Don’t label me a peacenik now cos I’m not. There is a time for war, and there is a time for peace. The Allies going to war against the Germans was justified, in fact, it was delayed due to the strategy of appeasement. This situation is different.The status quo doesn’t mean the people keep getting gassed in chambers. The status quo means that I live, work and play with Tamils, some of whom are my dearest friends. This is why I wanted to know, if Aadhavan thought the status quo was THAT bad – whether he wanted to leave and live under the LTTE, instead.

Personally, in the initial aftermath of the airstrikes, I was happy that we had responded strongly, because I believe gross violations of the ceasefire need to have deterrents, but now the situation is getting ridiculous. The government is not acting with any sense, or strategy, and they haven’t put any proposals down on the table. The LTTE’s strategy of trying to provoke a communal backlash is just mindnumbingly cold and ruthless. I cannot understand how any rightthinking human being can back them up on this, or want to live under their rule…

Hence my question to Aadhavan.

David,

You said:
“The threat of violence brought the concessions. Aadhavan’s not being uninformed or proud, just realistic. Calling a spade a spade doesn’t make one a spade-loyalist”

Mate it’s not a threat of violence, it’s very real violence… very often metted out to civilians… The point Ravana is trying to make and has tried in the past to make is very simple: if you don’t believe the LTTE represent you or are the sole representatives of Tamils in Sri Lanka then you should have the conviction to stand up and say so.. even if its behind the anonimity that the blogosphere provides. It’s not rocket science. Personally I’d settle for any Tamil to just refer to the LTTE as terrorists… that’s calling a spade a spade David.

My contention is that the notion that the LTTE are still fighting for a “cause” is very often held by those who live outside Sri Lanka who don’t have a fucking clue as to what’s going on here except for what’s posted on tamilnet. They sit in the relative safety and comfort that a foreign country affords and defend the LTTE by doubt the atrocities committed by the LTTE just because they the LTTE deny it (Ashanthi I’m looking at you… the GoSL did not bomb the JoC, they did not bomb the Central Bank, they didn’t lay the three anti tank mines in Wilpattu and they sure as fuck didn’t plant the claymore that took out the civilian bus – wake up and smell the explosives – do you honestly believe that the LTTE were innocent of these)

The LTTE are a money making operation, they have been for a very long time. They extort and threaten people into donating large sums of money but that’s just chump change compared to their other sources of income… they are one of the largest gun runners and herion smugglers in Asia basing their operations out of Thailand, Cambodia and Laos… They are minting money… How much of that do you reckon is going to the common man in the North and East? I’m guessing not a fucking lot.

The reason that people like Janapathi or any of his alter egos get shouted down is that we sure as hell don’t want him and his prejudiced views representing us… (the fool doesn’t want to use a trishaw because a Tamil person happens to be driving it). In the same way: I would expect Aadhavan to shout down any idiot who came along and said that ALL Sinhalese people hate EVERY tamil and should treat every single one of them with suspicion.

Ravana, it doesn’t matter if Aadhavan (or any other individual) wants to live in Eelam or not. If Tamils have equal rights, they won’t need that separate state. Most of the world’s Jews live outside Israel, and the majority are quite happy to do so. But they are also aware that they have a place to run to if things change. It’s symbolic — a principle, if you like. Which brings me to your other missed point:

The 1948 creation of the State of Israel came about as a direct result of the six million Jews killed by the Germans. It resulted in massive immigration from Europe to Palestine, coupled with international sympathy. No Holocaust = no Israel, at least not for a long time. So was it worth it?

As for whether it’s worth it here in SL or not, you can’t decide until you’ve got ‘it’. Since neither the GoSL nor the LTTE have got ‘it’ yet, we have to wait til it’s over.

It may not be important to you one way or the other, Ravana, whether we live in a united or divided island, but it does to many. To trivialize all the suffering by saying ‘focus on the happiness’ is rather childish. Particularly when so many are suffering.

The justification for the western allies going to war with the Germans wasn’t the Jews in the gas chambers (no one figured that out til 1943), it was the Tripartiate Agreement drawn up by the respective govts. You need to work at them history books.

And if everyone wanted “live, work and play with Tamils” as you put it, we would have treated them as equals and not burned them out of their homes. Yeah, yeah, I know, you were still in school or not born at the time or whatever and it’s all someone else’s fault so don’t bother you about it, right? Well tough shit. It happened. Now we have to clear up the mess. Saying “be happy” won’t make it go away, nor wipe away the pain, death and suffering that’s going on right now.

Fusili: “The point Ravana is trying to make and has tried in the past to make is very simple: if you don’t believe the LTTE represent you or are the sole representatives of Tamils in Sri Lanka then you should have the conviction to stand up and say so”

Actually, I said that.

Jumping on Aadhavan because he points out a few inconvenient facts, and then demanding he denounce the LTTE is a typical silliness. We’re caught up in the black & white of semantics and petty labels. Are you ‘with us or against us’. Many Tamils see themselves caught up between two evils. Yes, they think the Tigers are terrorists, but they also feel terrorized by the GoSL. There are many grey positions between the two ends of the spectrum, and you have to recognize them and deferentiate one from another.

Ravana you’re doing it again. You’re getting aggressive when someone disagrees with you. As Blacker says Aadhavan points out some ‘inconvenient truths’. ‘unforgiving insights’ even. We shouldn’t jump down the buggers throat for doing that because at the very least he’s not blowing us while doing it. And that is ipso facto an alternate voice to the Tigers, albeit via the ‘anonymity of the blogosphere’.

Why are we so keen to discredit the one admitted Tamil who will have a rational discussion with us?

Aadhavan said on your own blog Ravana, that given time the Tamils themselves will bugger the LTTE. As you point out, and he admitted, the Tamils are a stubborn, proud race. And given the caste permutations and the like, the LTTE will have a bigger problem on their hands with the governance of the Tamils than they are trying to decimate the Sinhalese.

Let’s walk a mile in the man’s shoes. If tomorrow morning some half wit in a verti were to say Tamil only and marginalise all of us Sinhalese – would we wait 27 years before the first shot is fired. 1956 was watershed machan. Just because a lot of us weren’t born let’s not underestimate its significance.

We go to live in France we’ll learn French. The Sinhalese and the Tamils should be learning each other’s languages. As Blacker says you don’t have to participate in the Pongal festivals and they don’t have to go to temple on poya. Just some respect for the other bugger, his point of view, and his fundamental rights.

If a Tamil petitioned the Supreme Court saying that he went to the Inland Revenue and couldn’t get his job done because there was no one there that spoke Tamil, he’d get laughed out of court – for asserting his fundamental right. That’s the problem Aadhavan is talking about and we must redress it.

The plight of the Sinhalese and Muslims livingin the Wanni is not great either. I don’t think Tamil children are anymore malnourished than those of the Mahaweli families and the Muslims (who were transplanted there mind you).

At what point will say ‘things are so fucked up I’m willing to die for this’. The Wanni populace have reached that point. If we’re not careful we will too.

Enough of this them and us shit on this thread.

Aadhavan you’re on the bring of being an apologist. Ten rounds, and fifty dips.

[...] மேலும் ( வழி )   [...]

Err….he’s not blowing us ‘up’.

David Blacker, yes the voices apart from Karuna’s is not as loud as it should be. That is quite understandable given that apart from karuna all the others are UNARMED. Where no voice opposing the LTTE was heard 5 years ago there a a few and that number is growing.

Your cursory dismissal of Karuna doesn’t make sense given that the TMVP have clearly articluated their position on broad terms. That is no different to the LTTE. Furthermore the TMVP have gradually marginalised the LTTE in the east.

There area significant number of people in the diaspora who still have family living in Sri lanka. Please check your facts. BTW the relatives don’t have to live in the areas illegally occupied by the LTTE. The LTTE can strike very easily in Colombo and other major cities. Also please read the human rights watch report on the LTTE’s extortion and intimidation of the diaspora.

As I said before most of the concessions or rights that the Tamil people have won were in place by 1978. That was when the LTTE were a bunch of rag-tag youth who had very liitle impact on Sri Lanka. The constitutional change in 1987 would not have happened without India. In fact India intervened in Sri Lanka to save the LTTE and Prabhakaran who
were trapped in Vadamarachchi and wouldhave been decimated otherwise. Therefore there is no real basis even for the limited credit that I gave the LTTE. If the Indians didn’t intervene then, the LTTE would have not existed.

It is a bit rich to say that the LTTE won concessions for the Tamils. The facts do not back that up. Since you seem so adamant in claiming that the terrorists have won concessions for the Tamils, please name me the concessions that have been won because of the LTTE and the year that they were won?

For those who don’t seem to mind separation, have look at the disater that befell India and Pakistan during and after partition. Separation is not going to end violence because invariably there will be disputes about the border. As with India and Pakistan the conflict will drag on and on.

hp,

the GOSL wants to negotiate on the ethnic conflict and on substantial devolution. UNP talks about federalism and Rohan Edrisinha talks about asymmetrical power sharing. Most Sinhalese have given up on a military solution. The debate between the parties today is a question of the interim measures to be adopted and the quantum of power to be transferred. That’s a paradigm shift as far as the southern polity is concerned. It’s a massive change and it would not have come without the LTTE.

David,

“Fusili: “The point Ravana is trying to make and has tried in the past to make is very simple: if you don’t believe the LTTE represent you or are the sole representatives of Tamils in Sri Lanka then you should have the conviction to stand up and say so”

Actually, I said that. ”

Er.. actually no Ravana made that point first… it’s there further up the blog.

“The 1948 creation of the State of Israel came about as a direct result of the six million Jews killed by the Germans. It resulted in massive immigration from Europe to Palestine, coupled with international sympathy. No Holocaust = no Israel, at least not for a long time. So was it worth it?”

Tough one but I’ll have a shot:

Let’s see the first wave of modern immigration to Israel started in 1881 as Jews fled persecution, or followed the Socialist Zionist ideas of Moses Hess.

Theodor Herzl, an Austrian Jew, in 1896, published Der Judenstaat (The Jewish State), in which he called for the establishment of a national Jewish state.

The establishment of Zionism led to the Second migration (1904–1914) with the influx of around 40,000 Jews.

In 1917, the British Foreign Secretary Arthur J. Balfour issued the Balfour Declaration that “viewed with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people”. In 1920, Palestine became a League of Nations mandate administered by Britain.

Jewish immigration resumed in third (1919–1923) and fourth (1924–1929) waves after World War I. Arab riots in Palestine of 1929 killed 133 Jews, including 67 in Hebron.

The rise of Nazism in 1933 led to a fifth wave of migration. The Jews in the region increased from 11% of the population in 1922 to 30% by 1940. 28% of the land was already legitimately bought and owned by Zionist organizations plus additional private land owned by Jews. The southern half of the country is the barren and mostly empty Negev desert.The subsequent Holocaust in Europe led to additional immigration from other parts of Europe. By the end of World War II, the number of Jews in Palestine was approximately 600,000.

In 1939, the British introduced a White Paper of 1939, which limited Jewish immigration over the course of the war to 75,000 and restricted purchase of land by Jews, perhaps in response to the Great Arab Uprising (1936-1939).

In 1947, following increasing levels of violence together with unsuccessful efforts to reconcile the Jewish and Arab populations, the British government decided to withdraw from the Palestine Mandate.

The UN General Assembly approved the 1947 UN Partition Plan dividing the territory into two states, with the Jewish area consisting of roughly 55% of the land, and the Arab area roughly 45%. Jerusalem was planned to be an international region administered by the UN to avoid conflict over its status.

On May 14, 1948, before the expiry of the British Mandate of Palestine at midnight on May 15, 1948, the State of Israel was proclaimed.

So your claim that the death of six million jews directly resulted in the creation of the state of Isreal is not entirely accurate, it was merely a part of the process.

As for whether it was worth it: the Israelis aren’t exactly living in paradise mate… Sure they’ve got a place of their own but it’s a tad difficult living in peace when you’ve got countries bordering yours who have publicly stated that you should be wiped you off the face of the earth and a simple trip to a nightclub becomes a lesson on what 500 grams of semtex can do to the human body. The great grand kids of those six million jews ain’t exactly reaping the benefits of a separate state.

OK, HP, let me take this point by point:

“yes the voices apart from Karuna’s is not as loud as it should be. That is quite understandable given that apart from karuna all the others are UNARMED. ”

Yes, but why did you then list Anandasangari and others as counter voices? They don’t have guns either (if your argument is that you have to have a gun to have a voice).

“Your cursory dismissal of Karuna doesn’t make sense given that the TMVP have clearly articluated their position on broad terms. That is no different to the LTTE. ”

So how then can they be a countervoice if they want the same things as the LTTE?

“There area significant number of people in the diaspora who still have family living in Sri lanka.”

Sure, and there are significant numbers who don’t Enough to have a voice.

“The constitutional change in 1987 would not have happened without India. ”

Your arguments on this particular concessions issue are just repetitions of earlier ones that I’ve already responded to, but I’ll say it again this once: India was an LTTE ally at the time. I said that the LTTE and its allies won those concessions, not the LTTE alone.

“Since you seem so adamant in claiming that the terrorists have won concessions for the Tamils, please name me the concessions that have been won because of the LTTE and the year that they were won?”

OK, let’s not talk about the big stuff. Let’s take a basic right. The right to express one’s religion and culture in public. In the ’80s and ’90s, one never (or almost never) saw Tamils on the road in Colombo wearing pottus and holy ash. In this decade you do. That tolerance and grudging respect is just one of the concessions won by the separatists. There are many more.

T, thanks for backing up my arguments with some dates and facts. However, how you come to the conclusion you do escapes me. Why was there no state of Israel between 1881 and 1947? What was different in 1947? The Holocaust. I didn’t say the latter was the ONLY reason for a separate state, but without it, the UN wouldn’t have come to the decision they did. No one gave a damn for 50 years; in fact they did everything possible to restrict immigration (as you accurately point out) and prevent a Jewish homeland. How did that suddenly change after WW2?

“As for whether it was worth it: the Israelis aren’t exactly living in paradise mate… ”

No, mate, they’re not. But neither are they being persecuted worldwide the way they were for 2,000 years. Having a state that has shown its readiness to protect them might have done a bit for them. But my question (“Was it worth it?”) was rhetorical. It’s a hard question to answer. BTW, don’t judge the Israeli situ from the news alone; try a visit. It’s a lot closer to Paradise than SL is, believe me.

What discrimination do Tamils in Sri Lanka face?

;) None, of course. Everything’s hunky-dory.

Well in 1939 the British actually tried to stem the migration of Jews to the then Palestine, a full six years after the rise of Nazism, so it hardly was clear cut that it would be handed to them on a platter. The call for a separate state began way before even before the holocaust and it may have only taken a few more atacks on jews already in Palestine to have pushed them into an armed struggle even if it the holocaust didn’t happen – but I agree that’s just an asusmption.

Frankly my contention is that to some extent the creation of Isreal was a convenient, PR friendly way of ensuring that the jews didn’t resettle en masse throughout the rest of Europe, Europe to this day is rife with anti-semitism and British controlled Palestine (with its historical links to Judaism) was the perfect place.

As for a visit, hopefully one day, but then again you really can’t judge by a visit alone… experiences by nature are subjective and in the same way that I don’t rate Singapore as a great place to LIVE based on a few visits, your conclusion that Isreal is closer to paradise than SL is again flawed.

Thanks Aadhavan. I do not agree with you, but I understand your point of view a lot better now.

checking

Sorry, couldn’t post for awhile. I think my pc’s trying to kill me.

T, try not to be so obtuse. In 1939, the genocide of the Jews hadn’t begun. They were being transported to forced labour camps and were being heavily persecuted, but Heydrich’s Final Solution was still some years down the road. Even if they were being gassed at the time, it’s unlikely the British would have known about it.

The Palestinian Jews had resorted to arms several times in the first half of the 20th century. No result. There’s no reason to believe that an uprising in the late ’30s or early ’40s would have made any difference

If, as you say, T, the UN created Israel because they didn’t want the Jews back in Europe (unlikely as it sounds), it was still a result of a situation created by the Holocaust (ie a western Europe ethnically cleansed of Jews).

As for personal experience versus second-hand experience, I think I’ll go with the former, even though I never said I based my opinion on Israel ONLY on personal experience. You, however, are basing yours ONLY on second-hand experience. I think it’s quite evident where the flaw is.

David – Janapathi asks whether your PC is Tamil. He’s away on business. Didn’t know fuckwits did business.

Ravana you can’t seriously ask the question ‘What discrimination do Tamils in Sri Lanka face?’

I mean…seriously. You can’t.

I mean…seriously man. I mean – come ON!

Actually, my PC’s German, but I’m not Jewish, so no worries.

Sophist, don’t jump the gun. The question is not a rhetorical one. I am not saying that Tamils don’t face discrimination.

I seriously want to know, and I’d rather it came from a Tamil, which is why I asked Aadhavan. I want personal experiences – real stuff, not some assertion, or second hand account.

My point is that the level of discrimination that Sri Lankans Tamils face in peacetime is not worth the suffering which will be caused by the LTTE’s decision to scuttle the status quo and return to war. This view is obviously based on my own experiences and observations. Enlighten me about yours. I repeat: what discrimination do Tamils face in Sri Lanka?

Aadhavan answer is copied below. By his own admission, he has not experienced any discrimation to justify a war. The Tamils in the NE apparently are worse off. I would like to think this is a result of a war and the LTTE’s policies, and not because of anything else, but I can’t find where he talked about the specific instances of discrimination of NE Tamils earlier. (Is it the stuff about standardization and colonization? Didn’t hp respond to that rather convincingly?)

As for being thrown in jail and being kept there without being produced in court, I know that happens because it happened to two people I know of through work in Kandy this week. They were not carrying ID cards, and were arrested on suspicion of being LTTE cadres. Their boss managed to speak to the police and get them out after one night in jail, but otherwise they could have been in there for fourteen days according to their boss. Apparently, the police caught three LTTEs in the operation. So, is this discrimination – arresting only Tamils on suspicion of being terrorists?

Aadhavan’s reply to my question below:
This problem is much bigger than myself. I don’t want to whine about the little inconveniences Tamils face in Colombo, because they aren’t worth the fighting of a war. I mean just because I can be kept in jail as many Tamils are for a few months without being produced in court doesn’t warrant an armed struggle. Neither odes the fact that I can’t carry on my daily affairs with the government in a language I understand. There are genuine problems faced by the Tamils in the NE though and I’ve talked about them earlier.

What are the problems faced by the Tamils in the North-East that are not a consequence of the war?

Just a clarification, before we once more are divided down the middle on the lines of those who think it’s the LTTE’s fault, and those who don’t: Yes, the Tamils in the NE are suffering because of the policies and strategies of the Tigers: Yes, the Tigers chose a guerrilla/terrorist military strategy that brought suffering on their own people: Yes, it was the only strategy open to a group fighting the state: Yes, the decision to take up arms was a direct result of Sinhalese racist policies. HOWEVER, I have found the Tamils to be just as racist as the Sinhalese, and I would imagine that if the former had been the majority ethnic group we would have seen a Liberation Lions of Sinhala Lanka (LLSL) eventually.

ravana,
the war has brought a certain state of affairs on both Tamils in the North and those in Colombo. I honestly believe that the LTTE sustains the kind of pressure that is needed for the government to give the appearance to the international community that the Tamils are being looked after. So now they don’t allow a riot, they don’t draft laws that are named “Sinhala Only” etc…this doesn’t mean that Tamils are being treated as equals in Colombo. Just not as badly as before. I realize that when I said that the manner in which Tamils were treated here didn’t justify a war, I didn’t mention that in a really perversely true sense, the war has led to the safety of the Tamil living in Colombo.

The Tamils in the NE and the discrimination they face? I spoke about resource allocation to hospitals etc.. didn’t I? Your response to that if I recall was that the LTTE kills children. Here again no grandiosely labelled pieces of legislation, the government can’t afford to do those kinds of things anymore, but policies that have a terrible impact on the people. Land being taken for HSZ without any compensation, economic blockades, restrictions on fishing, a total neglect of hospitals, schools etc. Extra judicial killings and a denial of justice. None of these problems are divorced from the war, the government knows better. There’s a war so it’s easy and convenient to blame every single policy on the war. You can’t fish, we won’t give you money either, so starve, there’s a war going on, didn’t you know? I’m just sorry you’ve bought into that story.

I’ve heard it being said that early post independence, it was the legislative organ that was spearheading discrimination against the Tamils. Today, it is the judiciary and the executive. Silent but devastating policies, surreptitiously inserted on the pretext of a war against terror.

The spam filter keeps blocking my attempts to post a message. I trust that this is coincidental and is not a form of censorship.

Hp:“yes the voices apart from Karuna’s is not as loud as it should be. That is quite understandable given that apart from karuna all the others are UNARMED. ”

David Blacker:Yes, but why did you then list Anandasangari and others as counter voices? They don’t have guns either (if your argument is that you have to have a gun to have a voice).

HP I did list Anadasangari and others because they oppose the LTTE although not as much as people against separatist terrorism would like. In relation to the LTTE yes, it is only people who can defend themselves against their terrorism who have the loudest voice. That is the unfortunate reality.

Hp:“Your cursory dismissal of Karuna doesn’t make sense given that the TMVP have clearly articluated their position on broad terms. That is no different to the LTTE. ”

David Blacker:So how then can they be a countervoice if they want the same things as the LTTE?

HP: I should have expressed myself more clearly here. What I meant was that the TMVP has articluated their position in broad terms and that the LTTE has also articulated their position in broad terms. The similarity is not in their positions but in the level of detail in the articulation of their respective positions. Both have expressed their positions only in broad terms. The LTTE’s position is for a separate country whereas the TMVP’s position is for a federal/quasi-federal solution within one country and also for the separation of the North and East into two units. QUite clearly the TMVP is a counter voice to the LTTE and a very loud one at that too.

HP:“There area significant number of people in the diaspora who still have family living in Sri lanka.”

David Blacker:Sure, and there are significant numbers who don’t Enough to have a voice.

HP: This goes to my earlier point which is that the LTTE has the ability to extort and intimidate a significant portion of the diaspora.

HP:As I said before most of the concessions or rights that the Tamil people have won were in place by 1978. That was when the LTTE were a bunch of rag-tag youth who had very liitle impact on Sri Lanka. The constitutional change in 1987 would not have happened without India. In fact India intervened in Sri Lanka to save the LTTE and Prabhakaran who were trapped in Vadamarachchi and wouldhave been decimated otherwise. Therefore there is no real basis even for the limited credit that I gave the LTTE. If the Indians didn’t intervene then, the LTTE would have
not existed.”

David Blacker: Your arguments on this particular concessions issue are just repetitions of earlier ones that I’ve already responded to, but I’ll say it again this once: India was an LTTE ally at the time. I said that the LTTE and its allies won those concessions, not the LTTE alone.

HP: I think you are missing the point. If India chose not to exert pressure on Sri Lanka the constitutional change wouldn’t have happened. The LTTE ‘s views and interests were ignored by India when it came up with it’s proposals. In fact the LTTE opposed the Indian proposals and fell out of favour with India. The end result of this was the Indians fighting the LTTE. Hence it was India and India ALONE that brought about the change and NOT the LTTE and India. I repeat the LTTE was in no position to put enough pressure on the GOSL in 1987 to force a constitutional change.

HP:“Since you seem so adamant in claiming that the terrorists have won concessions for the Tamils, please name me the concessions that have been won because of the LTTE and the year that they were won?”

David Blacker:OK, let’s not talk about the big stuff. Let’s take a basic right. The right to express one’s religion and culture in public. In the ’80s and ’90s, one never (or almost never) saw Tamils on the road in Colombo wearing pottus and holy ash. In this decade you do. That tolerance and grudging respect is just one of the concessions won by the separatists. There are many more.

HP: I don’t know which part of Colombo you lived in, but apart from a few months immediately after the terrible riots of 1983, I remember seeing Tamil people getting about their life wearing pottus and vertis and conducting their religious activities openly as they rightfully should. My mother took part in many a Hindu pooja during and after that time. This was in a period where the LTTE was not yet strong enough to influence local politics and thinking. As for tolerance it flourished in Sri Lanka way before the LTTE was ever imagined of and apart from been dented by communal clashes
from time to time has remained so despite the attempts of the LTTE to undermine it. Your statement implies that there was no tolerance of Tamils and their culture until the LTTE arrived on the scene. That is very far from the truth. A simple example of the religious tolerance practised in Sri Lanka are the presence of sections dedicated to Hindu deities in buddhist. If that is not tolerance then what is? This is a practice that dates back to thedays of the ancient kings and predates theLTTE by a couple of thousand years. The Muslims were given protection by the Sinhala kings when they were been persecuted by the portuguese and ironically the Roman Catholics were protected by the Sinhala Kings when they were been persecuted by the Dutch.

Aadhvan:
the GOSL wants to negotiate on the ethnic conflict and on substantial devolution. UNP talks about federalism and Rohan Edrisinha talks about asymmetrical power sharing. Most Sinhalese have given up on a military solution. The debate between the parties today is a question of the interim measures to be adopted and the quantum of power to be transferred. That’s a paradigm shift as far as the southern polity is concerned. It’s a massive change and it would not have come without the LTTE.

Hp: yes, A combination of the LTTE’s terrorism and corrupt, incompetent, short-sighted political leadership have brought about a shift in the thinking of a portion of the population. However nothing has moved beyond the discussion stage and this is due to a significant portion of the population been unwilling to bow down to terrorism and to the greed of the ealamists while being quite willing to address the grievances of the Tamil people within the existing state structure. Also no concession beyond what was made in 1987 has become law and hence it is incorrect to conclude that the LTTE has won concessions for the Tamil people.

The LTTE didn’t take up arms as a direct result of the alleged racist policies of the Sinhalese. Any policy that could have been deemed discrimatory was dead by 1978. Discrimination/racism does not justify terrorism or separatism. They took to terrorism because that was the only way they could force the rest of the country to agree to their absurd demand for separation.

The solution lies in building in true democracy and equality/equal opportunity and other safeguards like equal opportunity tribunals. All of this can be done within the present state structure which incidentally has substantial devolution of power in place through the provincial councils.

Aadhvan, The Sinhala Only policy got gradulayy diluted since 1958 and disappeared altogether in 1978. The LTTE was a bunch of youths running around at that time and had no influence in the dismantling of it.

Resource allocation to hospitals. So you think that hospitals in the North and East are bad? Have you seen hospitals in other parts of Sri Lanka? They are as pathetic and face the same problems as the hospitals in the North and East. Then you will realise that it is not due to ethnic discrimination that the hospitals are in a bad state.

As for HSZ’s, they are a necessary evil. If the LTTE stops attacking the military camps then there won’t bea need for a HSZ. However I do agree that owners of land afftected by the HSZ’s should be adequately compensated. BTW why don’t you speak about the huge HSZ’s maintained by the LTTE in the areas illegally occupied by them?

Retsrictions on fishing is again due to suicide attacks by the LTTE against the Navy while hiding amongst fishermen. I think you need to ask the LTTE why they hide amongst the fishermen to carry out their terrorism. If the LTTE ceases such attacks onthe Navy then the fishing restrictions can be lifted. The fishing restrictions in place in Trincomalee mostly affects the Sinhalese fishermen because the majority of fishermen in Trincomalee are Sinhalese. Overall I assume that it affects more Tamil fishermen than Sinhala or Muslim fishermen. However it is a security issue rather than a policy specifically targeting Tamil fishermen.

Economic blockade. That sounds far fetched to describe a ban on war materials.

BTW the GOSL sends essential rations into the areas illegally occupied by the LTTE. The LTTE takes whatis required by them before distributing the remainder amongst the civillian population.

HP who is the Governor of the Western Province and who appointed him? Also, who is the Governor of the NorthEastern Province? Who appointed him?

If you think the TMVP has a loud voice, HP, you’re sadly mistaken. Having a voice means speaking For your people as well as TO your people. Having a voice means using it to speak out, and not just within the NE, but in the south and particularly outside SL. If the TMVP is a countervoice, where are the masses who agree with that voice? Where is the civilian agitation that should demand the federal solution? If the TMVP has articulated its position, why aren’t its actions in line with it? The fact is, we don’t even know whether the original TMVP exists or whether it has seconded itself to the GoSL. An entity as shadowy and shaky as the TMVP which cannot even establish its legitimacy, can hardly call itself a voice. Sorry, I remain unconvinced of your argument.

“HP: This goes to my earlier point which is that the LTTE has the ability to extort and intimidate a significant portion of the diaspora.”

Yes, and it is also unable to do so to a significant proportion. My point is that there are sufficient numbers of unthreatened people within the diaspora to have an audible voice.

“HP: I don’t know which part of Colombo you lived in…” etc

I lived in Welawatte (Little Jaffna, as we used to call it in the Army) during the late ’80s and early ’90s, probably the most heavily Tamil area of Colombo. I’m not talking about people being allowed to go the kovil, but about people being free enough to display their ethnicity and their religion without fear. Maybe Aadhavan can comment. Because I can say yes and you can say no, HP, til the cows come home.

“HP: I think you are missing the point. If India chose not to exert pressure on Sri Lanka the constitutional change wouldn’t have happened…” etc

But India stepped in because of the LTTE’s virtual defeat (as you pointed out). Don’t you consider this the act of an ally? Make up your mind; firts you say India came in to save the Tigers, then you say they acted alone. The LTTE was just one separatist group, it disagreed with India and then went to war. Upto that time India was the LTTE’s backer.

“The LTTE didn’t take up arms as a direct result of the alleged racist policies of the Sinhalese. ”

Utter rubbish. They didn’t pop out of our backsides. HP, you continue to talk about the constitution and GoSL policies. I’m talking about the inherent racism that brought about that constitution and those policies. I’m talking about the discrimination that ensures that if a Tamil goes to have his newborn child registered as a citizen, he better be able to speak Sinhalese (even though the forms our correctly in three languages). I’m talking about the fact that if I live in Dehiwela and want something from the gramasevaka or registrar or police station I must speak Sinhalese. I’m talking about the fact that the constitution doesn’t allow anyone but a Sinhalese Buddhist to be head of state. Should I go on?

Indi, great post on a contentious subject – what heated debate.
Have you seen or heard of ‘No More Tears Sister‘?

david Blacker: If you think the TMVP has a loud voice, HP, you’re sadly mistaken. Having a voice means speaking For your people as well as TO your people. Having a voice means using it to speak out, and not just within the NE, but in the south and particularly outside SL. If the TMVP is a countervoice, where are the masses who agree with that voice? Where
is the civilian agitation that should demand the federal solution? If the TMVP has articulated its position, why aren’t its actions in line with it? The fact is, we don’t even know whether the original TMVP exists or whether it has seconded itself to the GoSL. An entity as shadowy and shaky as the TMVP which cannot even establish its
legitimacy, can hardly call itself a voice. Sorry, I remain unconvinced of your argument.

I am afraid that you are ignoring or ignorant about the ground reality. Quite simply it is the LTTE’s terror that is keeping the masses lying low. This will remain so as long as the LTTE’s terror squads are able to maintain a presence in the east. However fortunately as I said before, the LTTE’s hold on the east is diminishing. However it hasn’t diminished sufficiently to free the people from the LTTE’s reign of terror. This I believe will change as the ground situation turns further against the LTTE. The masses came out in their thousands as soon as Karuna broke away from the LTTE and went to ground as soon as Karuna disbanded and reverted to a guerilla war against the LTTE. There were reports of people tearing up posters of Prabhakaran in the east during that time.

The TMVP’s message is expressed through the media in the south and through the anti-LTTE Tamil media outside of Sri Lanka. Please see http://www.asiantribune.com and the TMVP website http://www.tmvp.org/ if you can understand Tamil. The TMVP does not have a sophisticated propaganda and lobbying network like the LTTE and hence are not heard as much as the LTTE is.

A free and fair election in the east will determine the true standing of the LTTE and the TMVP. That is free and fair elections in it’s true sense where the LTTE allows their political opponents to contest and campaign without the threat of death hanging over their heads. The LTTE has NEVER allowed this as they are not confident of securing a victory. They are terrified of an unfavourable result at the polls.

If you think the TMVP does not qualify to represent theTamil people of the East, the same criteria disqualifies the LTTE from representing the Tamil people.

David Blacker:”But India stepped in because of the LTTE’s virtual defeat (as you pointed out). Don’t you consider this the act of an ally? Make up your mind; firts you say India came in to save the Tigers, then you say they acted alone. The LTTE was just one separatist group, it disagreed with India and then went to war. Upto that time India was the LTTE’s backer.”

Let me try to explain this again. India came into save the LTTE from certain military defeat. Subsequently India on it’s OWN , without the LTTE’s consent and despite the LTTE’s opposition, came up with their proposals for constitutional change and pressurised the Sri Lanka government to implement them. India didn’t bring up these constitutional changes on behalf of the LTTE at the bidding of the LTTE. Even if they wanted to, the LTTE was in no position to dictate terms to either the Indian or Sri Lankan governments at that time. To call India an ally of the LTTE is stretching the point a bit. The LTTE was a proxy of India rather than an ally. I hope it is clear to you that the constitutional changes of 1987 were not proposed by India on behalf of the LTTE and that India was acting contrary to the LTTE’s wishes when it did so. India was acting on it’s own as an enemy of the LTTE when they made these proposals. My point being that the LTTE hasn’t gained any concessions for the Tamil people through their terrorism.

David Blacker:” Utter rubbish. They didn’t pop out of our backsides. HP, you continue to talk about the constitution and GoSL policies. I’m talking about the inherent racism that brought about that constitution and those policies. I’m talking about the discrimination that ensures that if a Tamil goes to have his newborn child registered as a citizen,
he better be able to speak Sinhalese (even though the forms our correctly in three languages). I’m talking about the fact that if I live in Dehiwela and want something from the gramasevaka or registrar or police station I must speak Sinhalese. I’m talking about the fact that the constitution doesn’t allow anyone but a Sinhalese Buddhist to be
head of state. Should I go on?”

What you are talking about are the failures in implementing the equality, the rights and the privileges enshrined in the constitution. As I said earlier successive governments of Sri Lanka have failed the majority of Sri Lankans who happen to be poor and not only the Tamil people. I agree that cases of discrimination do occur against the Tamils(More so the poor), the Sinhalese poor, Muslims(Mainly the poor) and burghers(Mainly the poor). However this discrimination is unconstitutional and is contrary to official government policy. Unfortunately not many people have the means to file fundamental rights cases in the judicial system to seek redress for these grievances. This affects all Sri Lankans from the lower socio-economic classes.

As with any society in the world minority communities suffer some form of discrimination and that is not unique to Sri Lanka. There is no minority in the world without a grievance or complaint of discrimination, perceived or real. This is not to say that such acts should be condoned or tolerated or justified.

The agitation for separation was started just before independence by ealamist Tamil political leaders. S.J.V. Chelvanayakam been the most prominent amongst them. That is before the Sinhala only act,which in any case was on it’s last legs when the LTTE started it’s terrorism in 1976. It is not discrimination but the greed for power of some Tamil political leaders that started the separatist campaign. The discrimination(perceived and real) helped add recruits to the campaign. The worst instance of this was the 1983 riots. Hence I do not agree with your statement that discrimination started the separatist campaign although it was one of the factors that helps to fuel it.

Do you really think that a poor Sinhalese gets a better service from a police station or a gramasevaka than a poor non-Sinhalese? Not at all. They are treated as badly as the concept of serving the public doesn’t exist in the ‘public service” . True a non-Sinhalese will face the added burden of having to communicate in Sinhala if he or she is not fluent in
Sinhala. The only people who get any kind of “service” from government institutions are those that have suffcient money to pay bribes or those who have powerful political connections or both. The rich and people with political connections across ethnic and religious boundaries are in the main the only people who are able to exercise their rights and
privileges as enshrined in the constitution.

These serious problems can be addressed and resolved by a government committed to true democracy and equality and good governance within the existing unitary state structure. Equal opprtunity tribunals should be set up to quickly redress any problems faced by minorities and other vulnerable groups.

If ethnic discrimination was so severe against the minorities then we should see a huge disparity of wealth, health standards and educational levels between the Sinhalese and the minority groups like what was seen in South Africa between the Whites and the blacks during the days of apartheid. However we do not see that between ethnic groups in Sri Lanka. What we see is a huge socio-economic divide between the privileged few who comprise about 10% of the population and the rest of the population. This cuts across ethnic and religious boundaries. Both segments comprise of members of ALL ethnic groups. BTW minority groups are well represented in the privileges classes.

Your comment that none other than a Sinhalese Buddhists can be the head of state is completely WRONG.
Nowhere in the constitution is this stated or implied. Furthermore it goes against Article 12(2) of the constitution.

It might be useful if you have a read of the present constitution.
Please see
:http://www.priu.gov.lk/Cons/1978Constitution/Introduction.htm

Are all Tamils separatist LTTE supporters? Let’s see if any recent evidence exists on this question.

The Tamil people living in the “South” participated in large numbers in the elections of 2001, 2004 and 2005. In the North and the East, Tamils voted in significant numbers (qualified by distance they had to walk to a polling station, difficulties with ID cards, etc.). It was only in 2004 that the LTTE exerted control over the Tamil parliamentarians. recall that T Maheswaran won in Jaffna on the UNP ticket in 2001.

Tamil voting was close to zero in the LTTE controlled and influenced areas in 2005 because the LTTE decided that Ranil and Milinda had been too clever in their negotiations and had restricted their freedom to act through the international safety net. They preferred Mahinda and his band of extremists.

Representative surveys conducted by professional firms in the government controlled areas where the LTTE could exter influence such as Jaffna showed that 80% were ready to vote for Ranil. Here is clear evidence that LTTE and the Tamil people do not have identical positions on all matters political.

Aadhavan,

My question was: “What discrimination do Tamils face that is not a consequence of the war?”
You mentioned several examples of discrimination against the NE Tamils that, by your own admission, are a consequence of the war.

For the sake of clarity these are listed below:

Land being taken for HSZ without any compensation – Consequence of the war
Economic blockades – Consequence of the war
Restrictions on fishing – Consequence of the war (and as Hp rightly mentioned this has affected Sinhalese and Muslim fishermen as much as Tamil – Trincomalee is only one-third Tamil)
A total neglect of hospitals, schools etc. – Consequence of the war
Extra judicial killings – Consequence of the war
A denial of justice. – Consequence of the war

In my opinion, the present war-like situation has been precipitated by the LTTE. Just as they scuttled the peace talks in 1995 by unprovoked attacks on the navy, now they refused even to take part in peace talks in Oslo. It can be argued that this leaves little option for the GoSL but to retaliate and take actions to prevent terrorist attacks in the rest of the country, which invariably means that innocent Tamil civilians will undergo a lot of hassle and police scrutiny, which, in turn, will strengthen the LTTE’s call for separation. It appears to me, therefore, that the LTTE is just as, if not more, responsible for forcing the problems that you mentioned on the Tamils, especially as it appears to be an integral part of their PR strategy.

Whether this decision to return to war is justified or not, and there fore, whether it should be supported by ordinary peace-loving Tamil citizens or not, rests on the extent of the discrimination faced by Tamils that is not a consequence of the war. You have only mentioned one example: the underfunding of Jaffna hospital that is allegedly due to discrimination (according to your uncle).

First of all, as hp mentioned, most, if not all, Sri Lankan hospitals are underfunded. For example, health statistics show that Sri Lanka has a 200% usage of in-patient beds. That’s one bed for every two in-patients. In this sort of dire situation, comparing hospitals and deciding which one is worst off is a far more cumbersome and complicated exercise than can reasonably be expected to be conducted by your uncle in a limited amount of time.

Secondly, the geographical location of Jaffna, separated from the rest of the country by a de facto state with its own tax structure, customs and security issues makes getting anything to Jaffna, medical supplies or otherwise, a complicated and difficult issue. Even if they airlift the medicines to Jaffna, the added cost, manpower, time, effort, distance from nearest distributor point, and paperwork involved in this “special treatment” maybe reasons apart from pure discrimination as to why a Jaffna hospital allegedly has less medical supplies than the national average. If Ministry of Health budgets had been split equally across all districts, Jaffna would still get less medicine because it is more expensive to send medicine there than to anywhere else in the country. Who’s fault is that? So, you see, you can’t just observe a situation and automatically attribute it to discrimination. There could far more complex reasons for the situation than that.

This brings me to another important observation. Sometimes, actions are viewed as discriminatory when they aren’t at all. I come across this sometimes at work. We have limited budgets and some times we prepare advertising only in Sinhalese. Printing a small amount of materials involve a higher unit cost, because the same fixed cost gets spread over a smaller amount of units. And sometimes, for smaller jobs we don’t print in Tamil, because in our opinion, the higher cost is not always worth the benefit. This could be interpreted as discrimination, but it isn’t discrimination. It’s a rational business decision. 1.8 million people just don’t generate enough economies of scale sometimes.

To be honest, Aadhavan, I was expecting more than this. One of the reasons that I asked you this question, is because being a fairly liberal sort, and being someone who thinks maximum autonomy without total separation is the best solution, I often find myself at a loss when I have to convincingly answer the same question I posed to you. Generally, it is posed by those taking a more hard-line stance. In these situations, I find myself often having to resort to citing 1983. However, as I said on my blog, 1983 was a quarter century ago, and Sri Lanka is a vastly different place, as you yourself have indicated.

When asked this question, I have never before really pursued your option of citing consequences of the war and then claimed that the government for some unknown reason would continue these practices during peace. I find that line of argument a bit of a stretch, and won’t even consider using those examples because they are so clearly only unfortunate effects of the war, and not causes.

Are there any more concrete examples of present discrimination that are not consequences of the war that you can offer? References to personal experiences would be appreciated.

Correction: It’s not 1.8 million. It’s closer to 5 million, with the Tamil speaking Muslims.

ravana,
I’d like to write a long reply but with exams a few days away I’d rather explain some of the positions I’ve adopted over that drink. I’d like to point out that the proper question is not whether the discrimination is a consequence of the war in a causal sense, rather whether the discrimination is necessitated by the war. I don’t know whether your position is that the majority of these examples of discrimination that are related to the war that I have been citing are justified or necessitated by the war. Is it? In the inquiry of whether something is a necessary corollary or a necessary consequence the test of proportionality must be considered. You can’t go into a church full of refugees, lob a few grenades at them. spray bullets around and say it was not discrimination because it was part of the war. By the way, why aren’t moderate Sinhalese likr yourself willing to in your own words “condemn” the armed forces for these atrocities. Because the navy denies it despite the fact that every single eye witness including a catholic priest said that it was the government forces that perpetrated these crimes? By the way, if your position is that any consequence which is causally related to the war is not discrimination, the the 83 riots wasn’t discrimination either.

My position is that a lot of the things I’ve talked about are applied disproportionately to the threat perceived. Or that they are indiscriminate. The best proof of this is that as soon as a bomb goes off in Colombo, fishermen in Jaffna are suddenly told they can’t fish. Or the fact that as soon as a strike on the army happens in the NE, Tamil youth are rounded up and indefinitely put in custody without any proof of connections to the LTTE. Or that the soldiers extra judicially bump off civilians, dump them in mass graves and then try and forget about it. Merely writing these things off as consequences of the war is being morally blind.

Why do these things happen. Why don’t the armed forces protect the people instead? Because of the underlying racism in the government. This racism finds brutal expression in the context of the war. If not for the war, which costs the government too much, which in turn forces the government to prostrate themselves to foreign governments for the sake of dollars and thus precluding the possibility of the government passing discriminatory legislation against the Tamils, the very same racism which is reflected during excesses during the war, would have manifested itself in other forms of non war related discrimination against the Tamils. This has been prevented by the war.

you seem to believe that the government has no responsibility in acting with restraint to ensure minimum disruption to civilian life, you are merely proferring the argument that force must be met with force and that no matter the consequences, the government can’t help what happens on the warfront. If that’s your argument, that’s fine. It’s not a moral argument and I can’t address it. Try talking to the LTTE, they appreciate that kind of logic. I don’t.

You seem to adopt two positions. One where you suggest that the government acts proportionately and doesn’t as a practice engage in targetting Tamil civilians. That’s a question of wading through example by exampe and I don’t want to do it now. Secondly, you’re saying, well, even if they do, that’s not discrimination and it’s permissible. The government did it to it’s own, so don’t complain. If the Sinhala government is incompetent and does not concern itself over the human rights of its subjects, that seems to strengthen the claims from the Tamil side for autonomy doesn’t it?

I condemn all violence on civilians perpetrated by the LTTE. Killing civilians in the name of targetting civilians is plain wrong, even if you’re fighting state terrorism.

*read “killing civilians in the name of targetting terrorism is plain wrong”

Ravana, of course you’re partly right when you say that tactical military considerations are certainly to blame for many of the current (and perceived) discrimination. But the apathy and inaction on the part of the GoSL to rectify some of the broader issues (like having Tamil-speaking civil and govt servants) cannot be blamed on the war. Neither can the existence of racial clauses in the constitution be blamed on it. It’s true that the war has brought greater hardship on the Tamils than the original discrimination that triggered the war, which by its nature hardens positions and divides society in disregard of grey areas. However (except for the inclusion on paper of Tamil as a state language) much of the original discrimination remains in place.

The current great suffering of the Tamils is obviously due to the LTTE’s terrorism; but there would have been no LTTE without Sinhalese racism.

And BTW, which minority isn’t complaining? The Tamil-speaking Moors and Malays have many of the same complaints as the Tamils on the language issue. They are, however, more realistic about separation (due to the small numbers). This is even more so for the English-speaking Burghers, who’ve realized there’s no point complaining. If there hasn’t been pointed Sinhalese discrimination of these minorities, it’s because they haven’t been a direct threat, nor have they had loud mouths.

Ravana, too many things that I disagree with only partly to really give you a coherent answer in this format, but just a couple of things:

I’ve responded to your comment on the constitution, the president and Buddhism above.

In the para you’ve numbered as 1, yes, taking the issue of Tamil-speaking officials alone, it isn’t worth going to war about, obviously. But that’s just one cog in the machine of discrimination, and it all adds up to the point where certain Tamils took up arms. And BTW, many Tamils (even in Colombo) speak very little Sinhalese. Not enough to carry on a conversation with an official on proper documentation or something.

On the point of other (non-Tamil) minorities, most of the complaints are ONLY on language issues, and these are not worth fighting over. HOWEVER, a Muslim group taking up arms (particularly in the East) is not unrealistic, particularly if the GoSL continues to ignore minority issues. But if your question is ‘why did only the Tamils take up arms’, maybe we should ask why the Sinhalese picked on the Tamils for far greater discrimination than other minorities?

ravana,
there are some fundamental constitutional rights that warrant protection even if they don’t pass your cost benefit analysis test. That’s why the government spends 1 billion rupees on every single election. The government is under obligation to communicate with its subjects in a language they understand. If the institution you work for is not a government organ, it is not bound by a constitution that expresses that value. That is the difference. I don’t read and write in Sinhala, neither do any of my family or most of my Tamil friends.

You know things have gone horribly wrong when Ravana calls Janapathi a jackass and then attempts to rationalise his alienation of Tamil three wheeler drivers.

Aadhavan – do you agree that the only reason you as a community doesn’t speak out against the LTTE is because you think that if the LTTE were by some miracle disbanded, we would regress to 1956ian era, with even more hatred towards Tamils as a consequence of a 23 year old civil war? Is that the only reason, or do you tacitly think that this is the only way to get some rights? Because if you do think it’s the only way – that is reprehensible.

How would the Sinhalese react to singing one third (PR system) of the national anthem in Tamil? South Africa sings it in 13 languages. All at once. It’s a bit fucking long.

Aadhavan – do you also concede that ‘discriminatory’ treatment of Tamils is necessitated by the senseless attacks carried out by Tamil youth? Can you see why the police would detain you and not me if we were walking down the street together. Do you not think that is a practical necessity for which the cost benefit analysis is in wholly in favour of a little detention and sporadic beatings? It’s not an exemplary human rights record, but it is necessary. Ask that poor Brazilian bastard who got shot on the London tube. Ask General Kulatunga’s family…sigh.

Discrimination against Tamils is now a consequence of the war. Previously, in ’56 and as a matter of policy since then it wasn’t a consequence of war. If Ravana is not willing to acknowledge that systemic flaws existed (prior to ’83) of the Sinhala Buddhist treatment of Tamils and other minorities – then there is no point in continuing this discussion.

Why would Aadhavan’s inability to get his taxes assessed in Colombo be any different my inability to communicate with the doctor at Nuwara Eliya hospital, if I didn’t speak English?

Costs saved on ammunition and general war expenses, will I think be more than enough to fund an additionaly tamil speaking civil servant in most departments. It is a little inconvenience we are going to have to go through in order to prove our bona fides to the Tamils.

It’s not a leech bite. It’s a substantial laceration. And if Dettol isn’t applied immediately (which it clearly wasn’t) , then gangrene sets in and you’ll have to lose the leg if you don’t want to die.

Sophist, you haven’t gotten off your high horse. So, I’m going to shoot it down and send it to the glue factory. I have always been more liberal in my approach to this problem than you have. [Edit] Read my posts properly. Of course, language in government offices is a problem. Refer my reference to possible affrimative action legislation.

David Blacker seems to think that the Sinhalese picked on the Tamils for discrimination far more than the other minorities. David, Please elaborate on the “extra” discrimination the Tamils allegedly faced and the time period in which they faced this.

Please note that the claim to a nation and traditional homelands for the Sri lankan Tamils was articluated by SJV Chelvanayakam in the 1940′s. This claim is based on falsified history and pre-dates independence when a government led by the Sinhalese took power. This clearly indicates claim that alleged discrimination by the Sinhalese led the Tamils to seek separation is untrue. Also it is inevitable when 80% of the population is Sinhalese, that the government will mainly comprise of Sinhalese.

As pointed out by myself and Ravana repeatedly, there are NO clauses in the constitution that can be deemed racially discriminatory. However acts of discrimination may very well have occurred and what is needed is the effective implementation of the clauses in the constitution that guarantee all citizens the right to equality.

There is absolutely no justififcation for ANY ethnic group to take up arms to fight alleged discrimination. If we look closely at the issues brought up as discrimination against a mionority, we will see that the majority community sufers the same if not similar problems. Any ethnic discrimination faced by minority groups in Sri Lanka are no more severe than what is suffered by minority groups in the west. We don’t find any one advocating or justifying violence by minorities in the UK, Europe or the USA because they have faced racism or discrimination. If so why advocate it or justify it in the case of minorities in Sri Lanka?

To digress a bit, please be aware that in addition to essential food items, the GOSL supplies the areas under illegal occupation by the LTTE with fuel,electricity and medical supplied and also pays the salaries of any government servant who works in those areas. This is done under the premise that the government is obliged to provide for the people in those areas as they are Sri Lankan citizens.

A few hours before I wrote this comment, Maj. Gen Parami Kulatunge, the deputy chief of staff of the Sri Lanka Army was assasinated by a LTTE suicide bomber in Pannipitiya. It is believed that a large number of civillian bystanders were killed. I unreservedly condemn this attack and I believe all SRI LANKANS should do too.

“do you agree that the only reason you as a community doesn’t speak out against the LTTE is because you think that if the LTTE were by some miracle disbanded, we would regress to 1956ian era, with even more hatred towards Tamils as a consequence of a 23 year old civil war? Is that the only reason, or do you tacitly think that this is the only way to get some rights? Because if you do think it’s the only way – that is reprehensible. ”

It comes to the same thing sophist. There is a fear that without the LTTE to pressure the government and ensure government reliance on foreign aid that in turn pressurises the government again, the rights of the Tamils will be forgotten. Go back to square one. These rights are related to physical security as well as political rights. I think they are inextricably linked. What the Tamils are looking for therefore, for the the umpteenth time, is an institutional safeguard. This has been articulated as self determination, but the term is too contentious and in the popular mind seems to connote a separate state, which it does not. This is why the 13th Amendment isn’t satisfactory. It can be rolled back by the centre anytime they feel it’s convenient and the Governor, who is the executive head of the province is appointed by the President. What would be reprehensible is if Tamils fail to challenge the LTTE to change if and when autonomy is achieved and fail to work together with the south in the enterprise of proper nation building with an immediate view to outdoing India and demolishing the Sethu Samudram canal.

aadhavan, It is to safeguard against attempts at separation that the centre MUST be able to roll back the devolved powers. Already it has been exercised once when Varatharajah Perumal the then chief minister of the merged North and Eastern province declared UDI in 1991.

I think it is unrealistic to expect a devolution that doesn’t have that safeguard built in given the long running and unjustified campaign to separate by Tamil Separatists.

Unjustified may not be as accurate a word as disporportionate. We all know that the LTTE demands are unreasonable. I think even Aadhavan would admit that.

Ravana I was less than 16 years old probably. I have a far better although far from complete understanding now. My father is not in Palaly anymore. My perspective has changed. I was wrong then, and I maybe wrong now. But until we acknowledge that there is a legitimate grievance which the tamils are trying redress illegitimately there is no point in discussing this.

How can we tell people who are willing to blow themselves up voluntarily, that their problems are not worth fighting for. They may not be to us – but sadly for whatever reason it is to them. That is the status quo. There is no point in trying to find a solution to this by conducting a monologue disguised as dialogue.

I repeat – it is NOT a leech bite. Perhaps after this week when the blood starts flowing back into your brain you will be able to comprehend that.

Aadhavan you could have just said yes.

hp, you can have safeguards to prevent a roll back of devolved power while having constitutional safeguards against secession. They are not mutually exclusive. Whatever gave you that impression? The Canadian constitution safeguards against a unilateral roll back, while not permitting secession either. Refer the Quebec Secession case. Besides, the UDI you speak of was extra constitutional, so no amount of safeguards would have prevented it nor offset the natural consequences of such a proclamation. As it was, the provincial council of the NE province did not not have the capacity nor the will to effect it. This is why it foundered. Not because the government was unitary and the constitution facilitated a unilateral roll back. Where did you pick up these ideas?

sorry, went through it again. Yes. Reason number 1. I’ve been bombarded with verbosity and am succumbing to the same malady. Must be a minority complex.

Actually, the French Resistance are considered to be the first modern terrorists. The techniques taught them by the wartime British SOE are now textbook terrorist tactics.

Apparently today’s attack the suicide bomber was riding a motorbike. Thank god, it was not a three-wheeler and you guys are safe. Considering the statistics they have used bicycle to lorries. Only the tricycle and the three-wheeler remain to be experimented.

Also heard that J’ela, Negombo terrorists were sheltered by sinhalese families around.

Before you say.. “fuck off” janapathi.
“not majority tamils terrorists”. I am wrong.

Anyway this time.. a miracle.. no civilians died.. thank you god for that.

Keep arguing..

i’m off..bye and death by booboo

Who is this [x]? Where has he posted. Ravana WTF??

I am NOT justifying the return to war. There was no need. Their only aim at this juncture is to provoke some sort of communal violence which will raise their esteem in the intenational peaceniks eyes. There is no justification for war especially in the face of extreme restraint by the government.

This is why I wholeheartedly endorsed your ‘Give the Sinhalese a Fucking Break’ post.

I thought we were speaking of the war in a larger context. I.e – not the specifics of the resumption of violence. For that misconception I apologise.

But for one who claims to have advocated autonomy on some level for the Tamils, you understand that your argument is paradoxical. Hence my confusion.

the struggle now must not be to stop discrimination but to secure those institutional safeguards. Otherwise, come the demise of the LTTE we’re all back to square one, with the possbility of Tamils taking up arms again in the future. That’s why Tamils aren’t that hung up on this whole language issue. It doesn’t justify a return to war, but exposes an underlying problem that will explode if the LTTE is removed from the equation. In my opinion the Tamil struggle must be soloely dedicated to achieving those institutional safeguards, not fighting for language rights and against other forms of discrimination, because autonomy immunises you from those forms of discrimination. Is the south ready to grant autonomy to the Tamils without having to go through another painful war? Ravana?

Dude – I’m not accusing you of INTENTIONALLY making a paradoxical argument. Obviously not.

Yes Ravana – they are. None of my statements had any semblance of a bearing on reality. I apologise and retract them all. You alone are right.

Our mates lost a father, my father lost a friend this morning….and I’m in no mood to lose one of my best mates because we disagree on how this problem should approached and make it more collateral damage of the fucking war. I value friendship more than proving my point – so this is where I bow out of this discussion.

If you think what I have said transcends the bounds of reality – so be it.

Extremist on both sides should be asked to shut up. If Tamils and Sinhalese see that there are enough moderates on both sides, the situation will get better.

after going through the comments since my last comment i came to following conclusions.

aadhavan thinks that ltte has advanced tamils’ ability to exercise their rights and if the country is going find a solution to tamils grievances ltte should get much of the credit. others have pointed out (correctly imo) how far from reality that is.
there is no doubt that tamils have legitimate grievances and they were denied some rights before. but if anything their position (esp in ltte controlled areas and other conflict zones) is much worse now.

meanwhile (this is in answer to aadhavan’s long forgotten answer to my comment ) other minorities have exploited the ’78 constituion and democracy to their ( and their leaders’) benefit. hundreds of thousands of new citizens is not a mean achievement. that is a fact. their very corruption is an indication of their integration with sri lanka.
Asking the Tamils to follow the political path of the up country Tamils, while it may seem to you to be the romance of democracy, is tantamount to saying, “All right chaps, forget about your political rights now. We’ll give you a 15 rupee pay rise when we feel like it and when we have to ask India for a a favour”
this only shows his own limited understanding of political rights.
is he telling that up country tamils( untill last election the main deciding factor in sl elctions) do not have political rights? he seem to confuse economic prosperity with political rights.
democracy, peace, or political rights, do not equal prosperity. nor can governments suddenly make areas prosperous. there are lots of peaceful, democratic, poverty stricken countries. government, democracy, peace, and rights can only give an opportunity to be prosperous not the thing itself and only if economic reforms are carried out and free markets given their head with individuals freed from unnecessary regulations.

one is free to criticize democracy’s messiness and compromises and one is free to praise fascists and their order and absolutes. i for one prefer democracy for all its faults and i suspect most ppl do. but we have to admit the fact that some ppl always prefer fascists. too bad for them.

aadhavan position is only possible with stubborn denial of facts on the ground. but at least he only argues about them . others who have similar blinkered vision and think ltte is beneficial for the tamils blow themselves up. some think ltte are their saviors while tamils boys are killed for refusing to kill others. when one thinks something is beneficial one support it in various ways and capacities. so the main question is whether one make that moral judgment not the act in support of it. i for one cannot understand how any rational human can make that judgment. too bad for them too.
i for one do not think most tamils do either. here i think both aadhavan and janapathi makes the same mistake from opposite ends.

to come to here and now, to anyone without blinkered vision it is clear that the main obstacle to real peace and democracy is ltte . no amount of rationalizations or justifications can alter that fact.
as such effectively defeating or containing it with whatever methods ( taking in to account pragmatic limitations regarding resources and circumstances) is the only feasible way forward. realistically it may probably involves more violence.
if we achieve to that we are of course not going to have perfect democracy, answer to tamil grievances, and prosperity all around, it is only the first giant step towards that. only hard work peacefully and freely done can achieve those objectives.

If you think the only decision facing Tamils now is to decide whether to”support” or not”support” the LTTE, think again. It’s much much more complicated than a schoolboy fisticuff where you take a guy’s side and fight with him or decide to beat him up. No, bad analogy. Even schoolboy fisticuffs involve a variety of different moral options, like sitting on the side, or shouting encouragement from the side, or walking away, or telling the headmaster, or trying to separate the two kids beating each other to pulp. Evolve sittingnut.

As to the other issue of whether the it’s possible for Tamils to feel safe within a unitary constitutional framework, refer the debate i the last quarter of this thread.

:-)
as i said i think ltte i the main obstacle to peace. if you do not believe that say so. if you think intentional killing of innocents is justified( even in a ‘complicated way’) say so. you are free.
others say what you say with bombs. they have made the same moral judgment as you that ltte is beneficial. ( you just took the easy and prudent option, when it come to action, good for you )

(btw do you intend to join in? or is prudently mere encouragement from the sides? while bully with the stripes beats up an innocent instead of the monitor who may or may not have guilty of some injustice to someone else. )

as for tamils feeling safe. main reason ppl (not just tamils) do not feel safe is ltte’s terrorism and its consequences. as long as ltte is there and as long as the conflict is there nobody is going to feel safe and innocents are going to be killed.
you are also free to assume that sinhalese are murderers who will kill oppress all tamils at a moments notice. that is what your arguments are based on. if you believe that in spite of all evidence to the contrary in last 20+ years and experience of other minorities (and as ltte do by trying unsuccessfully to provoke the sinhalease), in the same way you believe ltte is beneficial to tamils and most tamils believe that falsehood, i cannot help you. that is why i did not address above comment to you.
i also cannot help a irrational suicide bomber either.

if you want to label me a terrorist go ahead. Say so. Be a Janapathi. You are also free. We evidently cannot help each other. The main impediment to peace is the mistrust between the communities. The LTTE is a symptom of that problem and the problem that the Tamils don’t feel represented by the state. Tamils felt unsafe long before the LTTE and seem to believe that the only reason the state attempts to display some level of protection to Tamils is because of international pressure, which wasn’t drawn to Sri Lanka before the LTTE. No, that doesn’t justify killing innocent civilians. It’s just a state of affairs. This is not a perfectly ordered moral universe.

David Blacker: “You mean, other than the language issue, the repeated communal violence, the random beatings of Tamil car owners and drivers by cops? These are the actual overt (and sometimes violent) discriminations that were in practice throughought the post-independence era, and in some cases, right into the ’80s. There are many more covert and perceived practices of discrimination.”

The repeated communal violence you talk about was never a one sided affair. It always involved violence going both ways. To simply blame it on the Sinhalese is incorrect and unjustified. In Tamil majority areas the Sinhalese would be the victims while in Sinhala majority areas the Tamis would be the victims. I am sure there have been Tamil car owners beaten by cops as much there have been Sinhala and Muslim car owners been beaten by cops. How many Sinhalese suspects have died in police custody? Hundreds and they had nothing to do with violence against the state either. Yes the Sri Lanka police have a poor human rights record. However victims of that have come from all ethnic groups and mainly from the lower socio-economic groups.

The above mentioned incidents have happened in other countries including those in the so called developed world, but no one is calling for terrorism against those countries as a result.

David Blacker: “Where did you read this? Resorting to arms is certainly justified if the rules of the nation (the constitution) are discriminatory, and there is no peaceful or legal means to change them. And before you incorrectly bring it up again, the constitution is still discriminatory (as I’ve pointed out in response to Ravana), and the decision to take up arms by the Tamil separatists was made before even the first ammendments to the constitution.”

Firstly the present constitution is NOT discriminatory. Your comments to Ravana are not based on facts and I disagree with them totally. There were and are peaceful and legal means to change any perceived discrminatory laws in Sri Lanka. Granted the legal system is overlaoded and justice is slow, but those avenues DID and DO exist . The Tamil separatists took up arms in the mid-1970′s with their first action been in 1976, when the laws that could be considered discriminatory were on their last legs. In any event the The Sinhala only act which was short-sighted and discriminatory, didn’t last in it’s original form for more than a couple of years. It was continually amended until it disappeared altogether in 1978. In any case between it’s enactment in 1956 until 1978, education in the Tamil language right upto the University level was provided in Sri Lanka and it continues to be provided. This is more than what is provided in Tamilnadu. While the Sinhala only act was unnecessary and bad, it is NOT
the monster that it is made upto be by those who justify terrorism.

The conditions you speak of that supposedly justify terrorism existed in Apartheid South Africa and NEVER in Sri Lanka. I am afraid your justification of Tamil separatist terrorism isn’t valid at all.

I fully agree with Ravana’s last comment about the need to address lack of service in Tamil in government offices in Sinhala majority areas immediately.

HP, maybe you should get off your soapbox and actually read the posts before spouting horse doodoo. I have quoted parts of the constitution verbatim and explained why they are discriminatory. You may disagree, but that doesn’t change the facts.

“I am sure there have been Tamil car owners beaten by cops as much there have been Sinhala and Muslim car owners been beaten by cops.”

Really? Were there drivers (and all sorts) being beaten up simply BECAUSE they are Sinhalese or Muslims? I’m not talking about suspects in custody but normal travellers and pedestrians.

“The conditions you speak of that supposedly justify terrorism”

I have never and never will justify terrorism. I said the claim of a separate state was justified at the time. Please at least show me a modicum of respect by making the effort to actually read my posts and not just copy and paste.

Ravana,
You can fix the language issue, but it won’t prevent Tamils wanting those institutional assurances to make sure that the concessions don’t get eroded once the memory of the Tigers fade away. That’s why Tamils are not fixated on the issue, because there’s more at stake at present to be honest. These concessions have to be permanent. Not just a measure to discredit the Tigers, which seems to be the reason why you’re now in support of fixing the language problem, although you seemed to think that the problem was non existent yesterday. Also, have you changed your views on power sharing? I thought you said you supported a power sharing arrangement within a single state.

“How does the political autonomy for the Tamils in the North East immunise and protect Tamils in other parts of Sri Lanka?”

May not immunise them directly, but it might immunise them obliquely in at least two ways. This “Tamils in other parts of Sri Lanka” issue really attracts too much attention. NE Tamils who don’t live in the NE don’t live in areas outside the NE in significant proportions except Colombo. Because it is the capital. It hapens all over the world. More jobs, more mone, therefore a magnet to those who live all over the country. First, the concept of power sharing empowers communities regardless of where they live. The centre will depend on the regions for the smooth running of the state apparatus, and you can’t maintain good relations with the region of the NE without protecting Tamils in Colombo. Secondly, Tamils in Colombo will in the long run have some sense of security in that there will be a place to go to and feel safe in the event things go horribly wrong.

Ravana,
something really puzzles me. Re state terrorism, we had a long debate on your site some time ago and pretty much agreed that where killing civilians was a stategy of a party to a conflict, that was what constituted “terrorism” In fact you implicitly agreed that the state practiced terrorism prior to 1994. You mentioned two examples. This was the first one,

“I will answer your question about how I think the government pre-1994 carried out extra-judicial killings as a strategy:

1. In dealing with the JVP insurrection of 1987-1989, death squads killed thousands of Sinhala youth suspected of having links to the JVP, not to mention prominent journalists and others who opposed the government.”

Later, on this blog, when I claimed that the state was terrorising Tamils due to racism, you said

“Remember how the GoSL dealt with the Sinhala JVP? Sinhala bodies floating down rivers, Sinhala human pyres, Sinhala mass executions, death squads, and Sinhala mass graves like the one at Sooriyakanda. I hated it then, but now I can consider it a necessary evil”

Ravana, do you believe that terrorism can be a necessary evil? Are you saying that the strategic targetting of civilians can be permissible? I’m sure the Tigers will love to have that chat with you. You’re on the same wavelength.

What? The Geneva Conventions and its 2 protocols that are the international standards on the law of war define a civilian in the negative, as a non combatant. A combatant is defined as one directly engaged in military activities. Civilian status and prisoner status are not mutually exclusive.

David, I think you need to read and understand the constitution before attacking it and my comments.

Your comment “However, the oath (in the 4th Schedule) to uphold the constitution (which gives Buddhism the” formost place”) would be contrary to the religious convictions of a Muslim or Christian (not sure about Hindus). Therefore, such a non-Buddhist couldn’t take the oath in good conscience, and can be deemed to be religious discrimination. ” doesn’t equate to discrimination as Ravana has eloquently pointed out, although you perceive it to be so. I haven’t seen any other comment by you on the constitution and in that case the facts don’t support your argument.

When and where and how often were Tamil drivers beaten up simply for being a Tamil by the police? Having lived in Jaffna and Trincomalee in the seventies I can categorically say that this never happened in those areas during that time. Those were the days before terrorism where people of all ethnicities lived together amicably in both Jaffna and Trincomalee. Besides most of the police persons serving in those areas were Tamils and not Sinhalese or Muslims. Even in Colombo I never ever heard of this kind of behaviour in the days before terrorism.

I repeat that there hasn’t been any justification to the claim for separation which was started in the 1940′s by the ealamists and there are none that exist today.

Yes, one or two are being convicted (if they don’t die of heart attacks first), but you’ll find these are enforcements of the Hague Convention, not Geneva. But what I meant about the GC being outdated was that it doesn’t take into account many of the real modern day battlefield conditions. In fact, it didn’t even take a lot of the conditions of previous eras . Check this link out (my post’s towards the bottom of the thread): http://moju.lk/2006/04/26/chas-press-release-on-the-current-situation/

Aadhavan:”hp, you can have safeguards to prevent a roll back of devolved power while having constitutional safeguards against secession. They are not mutually exclusive. Whatever gave you that impression? The Canadian constitution safeguards against a unilateral roll back, while not permitting secession either. Refer the Quebec Secession case. Besides, the UDI you speak of was extra constitutional, so no amount of safeguards would have prevented it nor offset the natural consequences of such a proclamation. As it was, the pro